best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

**Steve** · Apr 17 '07, 09:15 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

"Paul" <lof@invalid.co mwrote in message
news:bvaVh.2371 2$254.6734@bign ews7.bellsouth. net...
|I have been coding apps with PHP for several years. But I am getting more
| involved in larger and more complicated PHP applications and want to use
| best practices.
|
| I use Eclipse's PHP IDE. I doubt I am using it to its full extent but I
want
| to learn more about, and compare and contrast, frameworks versus IDE
versus
| templating systems and MOST IMPORTANTLY learn what is going to save me
time.
|
| I know technically the IDE is the tool in which you code but there are
| frameworks associated with IDE - for example the PHP IDE for Eclipse.
|
| Can you use a any framework within any templating system?
|
| I want to learn now what is going to save time later. Please help
| straighten me out amd let me know what libraries, frameworks and/or
| templating systems you think saves you time.
|
| Many thanks!

yeah...my money is on notepad. the rest is just fluff.

**=?utf-8?B?6ZOB5omY?=** · Apr 18 '07, 07:45 AM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

On Apr 17, 9:41Â pm, "Paul" <l...@invalid.c omwrote:

I have been coding apps with PHP for several years. But I am getting more
involved in larger and more complicated PHP applications and want to use
best practices.
>
I use Eclipse's PHP IDE. I doubt I am using it to its full extent but I want
to learn more about, and compare and contrast, frameworks versus IDE versus
templating systems and MOST IMPORTANTLY learn what is going to save me time.
>
I know technically the IDE is the tool in which you code but there are
frameworks associated with IDE - for example the PHP IDE for Eclipse.
>
Can you use a any framework within any templating system?
>
I want to learn now what is going to save time later. Â Please help
straighten me out amd let me know what libraries, frameworks and/or
templating systems you think saves you time.
>
Many thanks!

smarty, FCS,cakephp.... ...

**Mitul** · Apr 18 '07, 01:15 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

On Apr 17, 6:41 pm, "Paul" <l...@invalid.c omwrote:

I have been coding apps with PHP for several years. But I am getting more
involved in larger and more complicated PHP applications and want to use
best practices.
>
I use Eclipse's PHP IDE. I doubt I am using it to its full extent but I want
to learn more about, and compare and contrast, frameworks versus IDE versus
templating systems and MOST IMPORTANTLY learn what is going to save me time.
>
I know technically the IDE is the tool in which you code but there are
frameworks associated with IDE - for example the PHP IDE for Eclipse.
>
Can you use a any framework within any templating system?
>
I want to learn now what is going to save time later. Please help
straighten me out amd let me know what libraries, frameworks and/or
templating systems you think saves you time.
>
Many thanks!

You can have lots of framework around you.... Like Mojavi, Sympony and
lot more... I am currenly using Mojavi and Symfony. And I found
symfony is really good with lots of inbulid support of AJAX, Admin and
lot more. try for that.

C. · Apr 18 '07, 01:35 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

On 17 Apr, 14:41, "Paul" <l...@invalid.c omwrote:

>
I use Eclipse's PHP IDE. I doubt I am using it to its full extent but I want
to learn more about, and compare and contrast, frameworks versus IDE versus
templating systems and MOST IMPORTANTLY learn what is going to save me time.
>

I would have thought that the templating system/framework were
completely seperate from the IDE you use. I suppose a framework could
have debug built-in - which would then affect your your choice of IDE
or vice versa but AFAIK none do.

>
Can you use a any framework within any templating system?
>

Most PHP frameworks tend to provide a full range of functionality
(authentication , access, ORM, DB abstraction, and templating) so it
rather depends on the framework you use. Actually most PHP frameworks
are really just libraries so even where if your framework of choice
does have a templating system this may not preclude use of a different
one.

I want to learn now what is going to save time later. Please help
straighten me out amd let me know what libraries, frameworks and/or
templating systems you think saves you time.
>

erk. It rather depends how apposite the framework is to your
application and development methodology. I'd recommend looking at
PHPPeanuts (automates development but can be tricky to customize)
Prado (XML based meta language system)
Seagull (library type system with sensible functionality)
Zend (likely to be favoured in commercial web 2.0 type apps)
Blueshoes (lots of javascript eye candy)
CakePHP (very OO)
Horde (PEAR based)

See also http://www.phpit.net/article/ten-dif...hp-frameworks/
....although you've asked about frameworks, I've got to plug PfP Studio
here - its a toolkit for developing forms.

In some circumstances it may be more appropriate to base your
developing around a CMS - in which case do check out Joomla and
TikiWiki

HTH

C.

**Henk verhoeven** · Apr 19 '07, 11:25 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

C. wrote:

PHPPeanuts (automates development but can be tricky to customize)
Prado (XML based meta language system)
Seagull (library type system with sensible functionality)
Zend (likely to be favoured in commercial web 2.0 type apps)
Blueshoes (lots of javascript eye candy)
CakePHP (very OO)
Horde (PEAR based)

Very nice, these characterizatio ns. I am planning to evaluate my own
framework (phpPeanuts) against other frameworks, this is a nice
shortlist to start with. Thanks!

PHPPeanuts (automates development but can be tricky to customize)

The automation is most effective with applications that mainly store and
retrieve data (including searching). Currently i count with a
productivity between 9 and 22 function points per hour* depending on the
amount of custom tasks they require.

I agree customization does take quite some knowledge of the framework
and browsing through its code, but OTOH, you can still resort to
'manual' development of the parts that are too hard to customize or
simply not available.

However, the assumptions the framework makes about naming conventions
with respect to keys and foreing keys of your database tables are not
customizable, if you can not follow them it won't work.

Greetings,

Henk Verhoeven,
www.phpPeanuts.org.

* I currently estimate this kind of development as follows:

hours per
-----------------------------------
1 datatype (not counting pure n-m relation tables)
0,5 1-n relation
1 n-m relation
0,25 data field
2 custom data entry layout
0 simple search option
0 page/window
0 standard report

Then i add time for non-standard development tasks, for communication
with the customer, for integration testing and for delivery/installation.

In order to measure my productivity i relate this to function points
counting as follows:

points per
----------------------------------
8 datatype
4 1-n relation
8 n-m relation
4 data field
1 custom data entry layout
2 simple search option
4 page/window
6 standard report

For example phase two of the application i am currently building
consists of 14 datatypes, 11 1-n relations, 6 n-m relations, 44 data
fields, 1 custom data entry layout, 44 simple search options, 44 pages,
42 reports and custom task. It is estimated to take 40 hours. This
application phase counts for 896 function point, so i am doing 22.4
function points per hour.

Now of course the more custom tasks i have the lower is productivity:
the third phase is estimated at 270 points in 30 hours, which is only 9
fp/hr.

(These function points are based on measured productivity when i started
automating development. I define productivity by then as 1 function
point per hour) (we are talking 1996, GUI based applications using an
IDE with a screen painter, a O-R mapping class library and event-based
programming in Visual Smalltalk).

**David.Dyess@gmail.com** · Apr 21 '07, 12:45 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

On Apr 17, 7:41 am, "Paul" <l...@invalid.c omwrote:

I have been coding apps with PHP for several years. But I am getting more
involved in larger and more complicated PHP applications and want to use
best practices.
>
I use Eclipse's PHP IDE. I doubt I am using it to its full extent but I want
to learn more about, and compare and contrast, frameworks versus IDE versus
templating systems and MOST IMPORTANTLY learn what is going to save me time.
>
I know technically the IDE is the tool in which you code but there are
frameworks associated with IDE - for example the PHP IDE for Eclipse.
>
Can you use a any framework within any templating system?
>
I want to learn now what is going to save time later. Please help
straighten me out amd let me know what libraries, frameworks and/or
templating systems you think saves you time.
>
Many thanks!

>From my experiences, a lot of frameworks have a templating system

built-in or support specific templating systems, such as smarty. I
prefer frameworks like Xaraya (http://xaraya.com). Xaraya has it's own
templating built-in, but they are html-based files with a few name
space variables to load in the data. Xaraya is mainly used as a CMS,
but it is intended to be a framework. It has saved me weeks of work.

One thing to note, most frameworks, especially the ones that will do
most of the work for you if you let them, have a rather steep learning
curve.

**Paul** · Apr 23 '07, 12:35 PM

Re: best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

very interesting productivity measurement! thanks

"Henk verhoeven" <news1@phpPeanu s_RemoveThis.or gwrote in message
news:f092cl$aj5 $1@news4.zwoll1 .ov.home.nl...

C. wrote:

PHPPeanuts (automates development but can be tricky to customize)
Prado (XML based meta language system)
Seagull (library type system with sensible functionality)
Zend (likely to be favoured in commercial web 2.0 type apps)
Blueshoes (lots of javascript eye candy)
CakePHP (very OO)
Horde (PEAR based)

>
Very nice, these characterizatio ns. I am planning to evaluate my own
framework (phpPeanuts) against other frameworks, this is a nice shortlist
to start with. Thanks!
>

>PHPPeanuts (automates development but can be tricky to customize)

>
The automation is most effective with applications that mainly store and
retrieve data (including searching). Currently i count with a productivity
between 9 and 22 function points per hour* depending on the amount of
custom tasks they require.
>
I agree customization does take quite some knowledge of the framework and
browsing through its code, but OTOH, you can still resort to 'manual'
development of the parts that are too hard to customize or simply not
available.
>
However, the assumptions the framework makes about naming conventions with
respect to keys and foreing keys of your database tables are not
customizable, if you can not follow them it won't work.
>
Greetings,
>
Henk Verhoeven,
www.phpPeanuts.org.
>
>
* I currently estimate this kind of development as follows:
>
hours per
-----------------------------------
1 datatype (not counting pure n-m relation tables)
0,5 1-n relation
1 n-m relation
0,25 data field
2 custom data entry layout
0 simple search option
0 page/window
0 standard report
>
Then i add time for non-standard development tasks, for communication with
the customer, for integration testing and for delivery/installation.
>
In order to measure my productivity i relate this to function points
counting as follows:
>
points per
----------------------------------
8 datatype
4 1-n relation
8 n-m relation
4 data field
1 custom data entry layout
2 simple search option
4 page/window
6 standard report
>
For example phase two of the application i am currently building consists
of 14 datatypes, 11 1-n relations, 6 n-m relations, 44 data fields, 1
custom data entry layout, 44 simple search options, 44 pages, 42 reports
and custom task. It is estimated to take 40 hours. This application phase
counts for 896 function point, so i am doing 22.4 function points per
hour.
>
Now of course the more custom tasks i have the lower is productivity: the
third phase is estimated at 270 points in 30 hours, which is only 9 fp/hr.
>
>
(These function points are based on measured productivity when i started
automating development. I define productivity by then as 1 function point
per hour) (we are talking 1996, GUI based applications using an IDE with a
screen painter, a O-R mapping class library and event-based programming in
Visual Smalltalk).
>
>
>
>
>

best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

best practices confusion between framework v.templating ?

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