How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

[Market Mutant]

I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP programer
or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.

Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there many PHP
jobs?

[CountScubula]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

"Market Mutant" <test@test.co m> wrote in message
news:ho3Ob.5224 4$6y6.1067669@b gtnsc05-news.ops.worldn et.att.net...[color=blue]
> I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP[/color]
programer[color=blue]
> or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.
>
> Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there many PHP
> jobs?
>
>[/color]

Personaly, I don't see it as high as $60k. Don't get me wrong, there may be
a Java programmer making that or more. People get paid what thier worth,
unfortunalty, to any of my companies, Java is worthless. I would rather take
on two PHP programmers at $30k apiece


--
Mike Bradley
http://www.gzentools.com -- free online php tools

[Gregory Toomey]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

CountScubula wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Market Mutant" <test@test.co m> wrote in message
> news:ho3Ob.5224 4$6y6.1067669@b gtnsc05-news.ops.worldn et.att.net...[color=green]
>> I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP[/color]
> programer[color=green]
>> or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.
>>
>> Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there many
>> PHP jobs?
>>
>>[/color]
>
> Personaly, I don't see it as high as $60k. Don't get me wrong, there may
> be a Java programmer making that or more. People get paid what thier
> worth, unfortunalty, to any of my companies, Java is worthless. I would
> rather take on two PHP programmers at $30k apiece
>
>
> --
> Mike Bradley
> http://www.gzentools.com -- free online php tools[/color]

I just saw a manager's job in today's (Saturday) edition for the local
health department. It talked about a "Java, CORBA, N-Tier" architecture. I
read that as "slow, slower, slowest".

As someone who has real web-based businesses that needs rapid prototyping, I
would NEVER consider Java.

gtoomey

[Jochen Buennagel]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

CountScubula wrote:[color=blue]
> I would rather take on two PHP programmers at $30k apiece[/color]

30? Woa!

Am I glad I'm in Europe where companies tend to pay programmers what
they're worth...

Jochen

[Chung Leong]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

PHP is too easy to set up, that's the problem. Any bozo can install it on
their PC, ticker with it a little bit, then claim 2 years of PHP experience
on his resume.

Companies that uses PHP also tend to be smaller and on the stingy side--at
least here in the States.

Uzytkownik "Jochen Buennagel" <zang.NOSPAM@bu ennagel.com> napisal w
wiadomosci news:bubdto$8i8 $03$1@news.t-online.com...[color=blue]
> CountScubula wrote:[color=green]
> > I would rather take on two PHP programmers at $30k apiece[/color]
>
> 30? Woa!
>
> Am I glad I'm in Europe where companies tend to pay programmers what
> they're worth...
>
> Jochen
>[/color]

[Jürgen Exner]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

Market Mutant wrote:[color=blue]
> I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP
> programer or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.
>
> Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there
> many PHP jobs?[/color]

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but shouldn't a good programmer be able
to learn a new language within a month or so? Ok, the basics he can learn
within a week and real proficiency takes somewhat longer, maybe 3-6 months.
But nevertheless.

I mean, if you want someone to finish a specific project short term, then
ok, you hire someone who knows the language that are using already.
But if you want an employee with a long-term perspective, is his current
spectrum of programming languages really that important? It gives an
indication about how capable he may be, but it is one factor among many(!)
others and not the dominant factor at that.

jue

[Jochen Buennagel]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

Chung Leong wrote:
[color=blue]
> PHP is too easy to set up, that's the problem. Any bozo can install it on
> their PC, ticker with it a little bit, then claim 2 years of PHP experience
> on his resume.[/color]

But he won't make it past the first month if there is anyone watching
what he does. The next time they hire, they might be more wary (sp?). If
not, they deserve what they're getting and I wouldn't want to work for
them anyway, because they won't appreciate my work.
[color=blue]
> Companies that uses PHP also tend to be smaller and on the stingy side--at
> least here in the States.[/color]

As a freelancer, I usually tell them to hire the highschool kid for
$10/h. When I call back 2-4 weeks later, most of the time I'll get the
job for my normal rate, based on their experience.

Jochen

[CountScubula]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

judge this by how fast you can learn a new spoken laguage as in French,
German, etc... sure we can learn the words, and I can say "Pick up the
pencil" but it doesnt become fluent for a while.

I would not consider learning any language to be done in a month, or 3-6.

Any programmer that comes at me with that attitude, Well, I will call him,
dont call me.

--
Mike Bradley
http://www.gzentools.com -- free online php tools
"Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:9zdOb.7148 $9U6.252@nwrddc 02.gnilink.net. ..[color=blue]
> Market Mutant wrote:[color=green]
> > I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP
> > programer or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.
> >
> > Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there
> > many PHP jobs?[/color]
>
> Sorry for asking a stupid question, but shouldn't a good programmer be[/color]
able[color=blue]
> to learn a new language within a month or so? Ok, the basics he can learn
> within a week and real proficiency takes somewhat longer, maybe 3-6[/color]
months.[color=blue]
> But nevertheless.
>
> I mean, if you want someone to finish a specific project short term, then
> ok, you hire someone who knows the language that are using already.
> But if you want an employee with a long-term perspective, is his current
> spectrum of programming languages really that important? It gives an
> indication about how capable he may be, but it is one factor among many(!)
> others and not the dominant factor at that.
>
> jue
>
>[/color]

[Walter Roberson]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

In article <9zdOb.7148$9U6 .252@nwrddc02.g nilink.net>,
Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotma il.com> wrote:
:Sorry for asking a stupid question, but shouldn't a good programmer be able
:to learn a new language within a month or so? Ok, the basics he can learn
:within a week and real proficiency takes somewhat longer, maybe 3-6 months.
:But nevertheless.

"real proficiency" can take a lot longer than 3-6 months.

I've been programming in perl for 5+ years, but I don't consider myself
to be proficient yet. Perl is a moving target, and it is a big
target; in 3-6 months you probably aren't going to have a chance to
exercise a wide enough variety of constructs to really be "proficient ".

Similarily, there's a very big difference between learning the
mechanics of C++ and learning it to the point of proficiency. I have
a copy of the official C++ ANSI standard, and it is at least 3 inches
(8 cm) thick of dense reference material. Learning how and -when- to
use each of those facilities takes more than 3-6 months.

I do a lot of work these days with Cisco PIX firewalls. PIX has
configuration commands, but is not "programmab le". Learning the basics
of PIX only takes a couple of hours, but even after 2 1/2 years of
actively working on PIX and reading (and answering) lots of
comp.dcom.sys.c isco postings about PIX, I can still only answer
somewhere around 40% of the questions. There is a combinatorial
interaction between the features, and there are new features being
introduced every couple of months.

If you just want someone who can get the computer to dance a jig,
then perhaps someone "imported" from another language will do -- but
to get it to dance *gracefully*, you want experience in that language.
--
When your posts are all alone / and a user's on the phone/
there's one place to check -- / Upstream!
When you're in a hurry / and propagation is a worry/
there's a place you can post -- / Upstream!

[Chris Mattern]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

CountScubula wrote:[color=blue]
> judge this by how fast you can learn a new spoken laguage as in French,
> German, etc... sure we can learn the words, and I can say "Pick up the
> pencil" but it doesnt become fluent for a while.[/color]

Human languages are far larger and immensely more complex than
computer languages--as is shown by the fact that computers
can understand computer languages but not human languages.
[color=blue]
>
> I would not consider learning any language to be done in a month, or 3-6.
>
> Any programmer that comes at me with that attitude, Well, I will call him,
> dont call me.
>[/color]
Your loss then. In my opinion, an average new language can be
learned well in a month of intense study. If the language
involves a radically different way of expressing a program's
logic (Prolog, for example), it can be learned in 3-6 months.

Chris Mattern

[G Klinedinst]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

Chris Mattern <syscjm@gwu.edu > wrote in message[color=blue][color=green]
> > I would not consider learning any language to be done in a month, or 3-6.
> >
> > Any programmer that comes at me with that attitude, Well, I will call him,
> > dont call me.
> >[/color]
> Your loss then. In my opinion, an average new language can be
> learned well in a month of intense study. If the language
> involves a radically different way of expressing a program's
> logic (Prolog, for example), it can be learned in 3-6 months.[/color]

I agree with you on this one 100% Chris. In college we were expected
to learn how to program in new languages at a fairly high level in
about 4 months in a course meeting for 3 hours/wk + homework time,
which is nowhere near a 40hr/week work week.

Obviously if you have a project that needs done yesterday then get
someone in who knows the language well at the onset, pay them high
contract wages( $60-80/hour) and get the project done, then bring on
someone else full-time.

If, on the other hand you are looking for a long term addition to you
company there are WAY more important factors than if they know a
specific language(work ethic, honesty, compatibility with your office
culture, intelligence, etc). I would go so far as to say that if you
hire someone who cannot learn a new language quickly you should be
looking elsewhere. Programming is nothing more than logical problem
solving, and languages are the tools we use to solve those problems.
Anyone worth their paycheck should be able to pick up a new one and be
programming in less than a month.
[color=blue]
>Personaly, I don't see it as high as $60k. Don't get me wrong,
>there may be a Java programmer making that or more. People get
>paid what thier worth, unfortunalty, to any of my companies,
>Java is worthless. I would rather take on two PHP programmers
>at $30k apiece[/color]

This is crazy. I'm not sure why you would go to college and learn to
do something as difficult as programming to make the same money as a
bus driver. You can get $50K or more starting salary for Perl or PHP
if you move to the right metro area. Usually about 10K more per year
with Java. Just watch out for the cost of living and competition for
jobs in some areas.

-Greg K.

[Lothar Scholz]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

> This is crazy. I'm not sure why you would go to college and learn to[color=blue]
> do something as difficult as programming to make the same money as a
> bus driver. You can get $50K or more starting salary for Perl or PHP
> if you move to the right metro area. Usually about 10K more per year
> with Java. Just watch out for the cost of living and competition for
> jobs in some areas.[/color]

Life is unfair. I know some programmers who work for 6000 USD a year
fulltime.
Oh yes, it's Chiang Mai (the second largest town in Thailand and the
so called next Bangalore).

[Pierre Asselin]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

CountScubula <me@scantek.hot mail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I would not consider learning any language to be done in a month, or 3-6.[/color]

It depends on the language. At one end of the spectrum, I was productive
in tcl after staring at the Tcl(n) man page intently for 20 minutes.
After that it took maybe two months for my style to stabilize. At the
other end of the spectrum you have kitchen-sink languages like C++.
[color=blue]
> Any programmer that comes at me with that attitude, Well, I will call him,
> dont call me.[/color]

Your loss. It's the *programming* that takes decades to learn.
By comparison the programming languages are completely superficial.
Even C++.

[Jürgen Exner]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

Pierre Asselin wrote:[color=blue]
> Your loss. It's the *programming* that takes decades to learn.
> By comparison the programming languages are completely superficial.
> Even C++.[/color]

Thank you. Exactly my point.

jue

[Sara]

Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java

"Market Mutant" <test@test.co m> wrote in message news:<ho3Ob.522 44$6y6.1067669@ bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldn et.att.net>...[color=blue]
> I just wonder job selections, job openings and salary level of PHP programer
> or Perl programmer comparing to Java programmers.
>
> Is Java programmer's salary has a minimal of 60K in US? Are there many PHP
> jobs?[/color]

It's not unusual for good US Perl programmers to make 80-100K. On
average I suspect PHP would be much lower due mainly to demamnd. It's
too bad too- PHP kicks ass on web and DB aps. I love both languages.

All of this is rapidly changing however, and if you're asking this,
pondering a career, DO NOT go into CS. A collegue sent me an article
yesterday, where IBM is exporting thousands of programming positions
to China for $12.50 / hour including benefits. Mickey-soft already
has, as have myraid ofher hi-techs. As well as of course - India.



My two hi-tech Masters' won't even get me a cashier's job in 5 years.
We educate the foreign nationals, then they take our jobs.

I'd strongly recommend you look at entirely different fields;
something where the contributor HAS TO BE ON SITE? Like "Animal
Husbandry" perhaps? Already 26% of hi-tech grads are NOT FINDING WORK
in Hi-tech, and that number is growing and expected to double in the
next 5 years.

It's a sorry state of affairs I know, but programming on shore in the
USA will be as common as musket-makers soon. These companies are so
short-sighted, who is going to BUY their products if no one is
working!?

G