optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

**hrishy** · Jun 27 '08, 05:25 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

Hi

You can use varchar2...but i suggest you dont code any intelligence in
these keys...use dumb keys like this

My_dumb_key My_key
1 A12
2 A2

now make my_dumb_key as your primary which is a number populated by a
sequence or something..

I think this is the best.You can make My_key unique..

Read books on data modelling they will have detailed explanation

regards
Hrishy

**Sanjay Minni** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

What I meant was that specifically to Oracle 8i/9i,
internal data storage methods and data & index structures
what will be the optimum datatype to be used
[for 12 digit key lengths] to make best use
of space [data & index] and speed of access [joins etc].

The effect will cascade as most of the primary key columns
will be duplicated as foriegn keys in other tables
and invariably large joins will be used

Sanjay Minni

https://www.planage.com

**sybrandb@yahoo.com** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

sminni_SPAM_DIV ERTER@planage.c om (Sanjay Minni) wrote in message news:<4fe109d.0 310271823.58b3b 2c8@posting.goo gle.com>...

What I meant was that specifically to Oracle 8i/9i,
internal data storage methods and data & index structures
what will be the optimum datatype to be used
[for 12 digit key lengths] to make best use
of space [data & index] and speed of access [joins etc].
>
The effect will cascade as most of the primary key columns
will be duplicated as foriegn keys in other tables
and invariably large joins will be used
>
Sanjay Minni
www.planage.com

If your key is numeric, one of the most stupid moves you can make is
storing them in varchar2s. Numeric columns are packed, varchar2
columns aren't. Also you are likely to end up with implicit conversion
issues if someone mistakenly writes queries like this one
key_column = 1234.
This will be automatically converted by Oracle to
to_number(key_c olumn) = 1234
and consequently the primary key index will not be used.

Regards
Sybrand Bakker
Senior Oracle DBA

**Sanjay Minni** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

sybrandb@yahoo. com wrote in message news:<a1d154f4. 0310280118.1f47 d7a2@posting.go ogle.com>...

sminni_SPAM_DIV ERTER@planage.c om (Sanjay Minni) wrote in message news:<4fe109d.0 310271823.58b3b 2c8@posting.goo gle.com>...

[snip...]what will be the optimum datatype to be used
[for 12 digit key lengths] to make best use
of space [data & index] and speed of access [joins etc].

>
If your key is numeric, one of the most stupid moves you can make is
storing them in varchar2s. Numeric columns are packed, varchar2
columns aren't. Also you are likely to end up with implicit conversion
issues if someone mistakenly writes queries like this one
key_column = 1234.
This will be automatically converted by Oracle to
to_number(key_c olumn) = 1234
and consequently the primary key index will not be used.
>

good, so once again, assuming I need around 12 digit long values
in primary keys what is the best datatype to use to optimise
Primary keys, indexes, foriegn keys, joins and matches
i.e. "=" , ">"...

will I gain anything if I reduce length to
(say minimum 10 digit positions) or instead
use fixed length character datatypes on 12 positions

Actually we are generating key values and padding
with a leading (number) value to make up 12 positions
We can go minimum 10 positions if it really leads
to significant savings in any manner

Sanjay

Sanjay Minni

**mcstock** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

to illustrate, VARCHAR2 is variable length, so no padding is used in storage
(although a length byte or 2 is required)

however, most number in a VARCHAR2 requires more storage than the same value
in a NUMBER column, since the NUMBER column stores the significant digits
and precision, vs each of the literal digits:

SQLcreate table tbl1 (
2 as_varchar2 varchar2(12)
3 , as_number number(12)
4 );

Table created.

SQLinsert into tbl1 values( '20000000', 20000000 );
SQLinsert into tbl1 values ('12345678', 12345678 );

SQLselect as_number, vsize(as_varcha r2), vsize(as_number ) from tbl1;
....

AS_NUMBER VSIZE(AS_VARCHA R2) VSIZE(AS_NUMBER )
---------- ------------------ ----------------
20000000 8 2
12345678 8 5

so, real simple:

make PK columns NUMBER whenever possible -- with our without a maximum
precision

always declare the FK column(s) with the exact same datatype and precision
as the referenced PK column(s)

assign the PK value with an Oracle SEQUENCE object

--
----------------------------------------
Mark C. Stock

Site Not Found | Framer

https://www.enquery.com

(888) 512-2048

"Sanjay Minni" <sminni_SPAM_DI VERTER@planage. comwrote in message
news:4fe109d.03 10280846.583313 5d@posting.goog le.com...

sybrandb@yahoo. com wrote in message

news:<a1d154f4. 0310280118.1f47 d7a2@posting.go ogle.com>...

sminni_SPAM_DIV ERTER@planage.c om (Sanjay Minni) wrote in message

news:<4fe109d.0 310271823.58b3b 2c8@posting.goo gle.com>...

[snip...]what will be the optimum datatype to be used
[for 12 digit key lengths] to make best use
of space [data & index] and speed of access [joins etc].

If your key is numeric, one of the most stupid moves you can make is
storing them in varchar2s. Numeric columns are packed, varchar2
columns aren't. Also you are likely to end up with implicit conversion
issues if someone mistakenly writes queries like this one
key_column = 1234.
This will be automatically converted by Oracle to
to_number(key_c olumn) = 1234
and consequently the primary key index will not be used.

>
good, so once again, assuming I need around 12 digit long values
in primary keys what is the best datatype to use to optimise
Primary keys, indexes, foriegn keys, joins and matches
i.e. "=" , ">"...
>
will I gain anything if I reduce length to
(say minimum 10 digit positions) or instead
use fixed length character datatypes on 12 positions
>
Actually we are generating key values and padding
with a leading (number) value to make up 12 positions
We can go minimum 10 positions if it really leads
to significant savings in any manner
>
Sanjay
>
Sanjay Minni

**Sanjay Minni** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

make PK columns NUMBER whenever possible -- with our without a maximum

precision
>
always declare the FK column(s) with the exact same datatype and precision
as the referenced PK column(s)
>
assign the PK value with an Oracle SEQUENCE object

Mark C. Stock
www.enquery.com

Thanks,
Now as I need only
- integer values and of
- 12 digit positions all filled (i.e. maximum 1 or 2 leading zeroes)

in an attempt to optimise
I will declare as NUMBER(12,0)

Q. Is the storage pattern same if the number is shorter say NUMBER(10,2)
except off course the saving of say one byte per value
specially in indexes (I can even go shorter if required)

and ...

Q is there any overheads in joins when using NUMBER datatype
The highest use of the primary key will be in Joins
and the implicit internal index accesses and comparisions
in joins.

There will hardly be any other use of the primary key values

Regards
Sanjay Minni

**sybrandb@yahoo.com** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

sminni_SPAM_DIV ERTER@planage.c om (Sanjay Minni) wrote in message news:<4fe109d.0 310282228.7358f 8c4@posting.goo gle.com>...

make PK columns NUMBER whenever possible -- with our without a maximum
precision

always declare the FK column(s) with the exact same datatype and precision
as the referenced PK column(s)

assign the PK value with an Oracle SEQUENCE object

>

Mark C. Stock
www.enquery.com

>
Thanks,
Now as I need only
- integer values and of
- 12 digit positions all filled (i.e. maximum 1 or 2 leading zeroes)
>
in an attempt to optimise
I will declare as NUMBER(12,0)
>
Q. Is the storage pattern same if the number is shorter say NUMBER(10,2)
except off course the saving of say one byte per value
specially in indexes (I can even go shorter if required)
>
and ...
>
Q is there any overheads in joins when using NUMBER datatype
The highest use of the primary key will be in Joins
and the implicit internal index accesses and comparisions
in joins.
>
There will hardly be any other use of the primary key values
>
Regards
Sanjay Minni

You DON'T NEED leading zeroes, and you can't store them in a number
datatype (which is good, as leading zeroes is a *display* property).
Number(10,2) means you have 10 positions, of which 2 are used as
fraction.
There is NO overhead in using a NUMBER datatype in joins!!
There is overhead in using VARCHAR2s (which you already demonstrate as
you seem to feel compelled mistakenly to pad them)

Could you please brush up your manual reading skills? It's all there.

Sybrand Bakker
Senior Oracle DBA

**Max Pieh** · Jun 27 '08, 05:26 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

Thanks,
Now as I need only
- integer values and of
- 12 digit positions all filled (i.e. maximum 1 or 2 leading zeroes)

in an attempt to optimise
I will declare as NUMBER(12,0)

Q. Is the storage pattern same if the number is shorter say NUMBER(10,2)
except off course the saving of say one byte per value
specially in indexes (I can even go shorter if required)

and ...

Q is there any overheads in joins when using NUMBER datatype
The highest use of the primary key will be in Joins
and the implicit internal index accesses and comparisions
in joins.

There will hardly be any other use of the primary key values

Regards
Sanjay Minni

>
You DON'T NEED leading zeroes, and you can't store them in a number
datatype (which is good, as leading zeroes is a *display* property).
Number(10,2) means you have 10 positions, of which 2 are used as
fraction.
There is NO overhead in using a NUMBER datatype in joins!!
There is overhead in using VARCHAR2s (which you already demonstrate as
you seem to feel compelled mistakenly to pad them)
>
Could you please brush up your manual reading skills? It's all there.
>
Sybrand Bakker
Senior Oracle DBA

How can anyone give such a rude and incompetent answer to a sensible
question?

Nobody claimed that leading zeroes can be stored in a number datatype.

The question is:
Does declaring a column as number(10,0) make it need less memory
storage than declaring it simply as number?

Are search operations which use the index faster when the index column
is declared as number(10,0) as compared to when it is declared as
number?

regards,
Max

**Frank** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

Max Pieh wrote:

>>>Thanks,
>>>Now as I need only
>> - integer values and of
>> - 12 digit positions all filled (i.e. maximum 1 or 2 leading zeroes)
>>>
>>>in an attempt to optimise
>>>I will declare as NUMBER(12,0)
>>>
>>>Q. Is the storage pattern same if the number is shorter say NUMBER(10,2)
>> except off course the saving of say one byte per value
>> specially in indexes (I can even go shorter if required)
>>>
>>>and ...
>>>
>>>Q is there any overheads in joins when using NUMBER datatype
>> The highest use of the primary key will be in Joins
>> and the implicit internal index accesses and comparisions
>> in joins.
>>>
>> There will hardly be any other use of the primary key values
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Sanjay Minni

>>
>>You DON'T NEED leading zeroes, and you can't store them in a number
>>datatype (which is good, as leading zeroes is a *display* property).
>>Number(10,2 ) means you have 10 positions, of which 2 are used as
>>fraction.
>>There is NO overhead in using a NUMBER datatype in joins!!
>>There is overhead in using VARCHAR2s (which you already demonstrate as
>>you seem to feel compelled mistakenly to pad them)
>>
>>Could you please brush up your manual reading skills? It's all there.
>>
>>Sybrand Bakker
>>Senior Oracle DBA

>
>
>
How can anyone give such a rude and incompetent answer to a sensible
question?
>
Nobody claimed that leading zeroes can be stored in a number datatype.
>
The question is:
Does declaring a column as number(10,0) make it need less memory
storage than declaring it simply as number?
>
Are search operations which use the index faster when the index column
is declared as number(10,0) as compared to when it is declared as
number?
>
regards,
Max

Because it's a non-issue. All the answers are there (OK, OK - some
coding was actually left to the OP).

Give a man something to eat, and he will be hungry tomorrow,
teach him how to fidh, and he'll never be hungry again.
Or words the like.

Generally, we're not here to hold hands...

--
Regards, Frank van Bortel

**Sanjay Minni** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

How can anyone give such a rude and incompetent answer to a sensible

question?
>
Nobody claimed that leading zeroes can be stored in a number datatype.
>
The question is:
Does declaring a column as number(10,0) make it need less memory
storage than declaring it simply as number?
>
Are search operations which use the index faster when the index column
is declared as number(10,0) as compared to when it is declared as
number? [...<added>or as any other type whatsoever given you are using
only digits for values]
regards,
Max

Max you have summarised to the exact question which I was trying to
pose
all along, I have just added the note in [...] for further
clarification

Of the above, the second issue on joins is vital specially as there
are large tables and large joins. A typical SQL for a complex report
in a substantially normalised database can be a nightmare and
every bit of optimisation helps (sometimes we have over 10 joins
and at least 2-3 tables have over 1,000,000 rows, while other
hover around 100,000 rows). In fact that is where we use Oracle

Space is not the issue, only its implication in speed is, Infact all
focus is on optimisation in SQL for Selects with large joins, rows
sets
and possible group by clauses

In response to the observations in the other posts, i would like to
state that I have been thru the manuals but the could not find
sufficient material to the issues as summarised above, specially the
second.

I suppose "Senior Oracle DBA's" have a right to be ...

**Jug Ray** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

Frank <fvanbortel@net scape.netwrote in message news:<bnpdbo$nd q$1@news1.tilbu 1.nb.home.nl>.. .

Because it's a non-issue. All the answers are there (OK, OK - some
coding was actually left to the OP).
>
Give a man something to eat, and he will be hungry tomorrow,
teach him how to fidh, and he'll never be hungry again.
Or words the like.
>
Generally, we're not here to hold hands...

is the datatype an issue in indexes or not
i am looking also for an answer to that one
for a long time, tell me where it is in the manual
chapter, verses, book of ... as you seem to speak
for the group at large

what are you trying to say in "Give a man..."
I know its all there but can make sense of what you say

Jug

**mcstock** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

Sanjay,

You're focusing much to much attention on what really is a non-issue. For
many years, any type of NUMBER datatype has been the recommended datatype
for PKs. Overhead of NUMBER(10) vs NUMBER vs NUMBER(10,0) etc, etc. is in
reality not relevant.

What has a far greater impact on performance are 1) poorly written PL/SQL
(typically excessive loops that spawn excessive recursive SQL). 2)poorly
indexed tables and 3) poorly written SQL (partial joins, joins to multiple
tables rather than natural PK/FK joins, columns wrapped in expressions).

Use NUMBER datatypes, constrain them if you like, and move on to some more
important issues.

-- MCS

"Sanjay Minni" <sminni_SPAM_DI VERTER@planage. comwrote in message
news:4fe109d.03 10300422.4adf55 40@posting.goog le.com...

How can anyone give such a rude and incompetent answer to a sensible
question?

Nobody claimed that leading zeroes can be stored in a number datatype.

The question is:
Does declaring a column as number(10,0) make it need less memory
storage than declaring it simply as number?

Are search operations which use the index faster when the index column
is declared as number(10,0) as compared to when it is declared as
number? [...<added>or as any other type whatsoever given you are using
only digits for values]
regards,
Max

>
Max you have summarised to the exact question which I was trying to
pose
all along, I have just added the note in [...] for further
clarification
>
Of the above, the second issue on joins is vital specially as there
are large tables and large joins. A typical SQL for a complex report
in a substantially normalised database can be a nightmare and
every bit of optimisation helps (sometimes we have over 10 joins
and at least 2-3 tables have over 1,000,000 rows, while other
hover around 100,000 rows). In fact that is where we use Oracle
>
Space is not the issue, only its implication in speed is, Infact all
focus is on optimisation in SQL for Selects with large joins, rows
sets
and possible group by clauses
>
In response to the observations in the other posts, i would like to
state that I have been thru the manuals but the could not find
sufficient material to the issues as summarised above, specially the
second.
>
I suppose "Senior Oracle DBA's" have a right to be ...

**mcstock** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

jug, no one speaks for 'the group', though some do like to speak louder.

datatype is not an issue in the strictest sense

using updatable values in primary keys, or values that have a meaning beyond
identification, are issues

creating an index on a DNAME column in a departments table (a real table,
not Scott's 4-row table) is not an issue if the index is being created to
support searches on DNAME or to support uniqueness

however, if i use DNAME as a PK (since my analysis tells me it has to be
unique) instead of a system-assigned, or even a user-assigned number i will
have the following issues:

[_] larger values in the index
[_] potential updates as department names change
[_] cascading updates to other tables with FK's referencing the updated PK
[_] potential table structure revisions as business rules change (if
department names are no longer unique, it's a lot easier to drop a unique
constraint than to restructure the table with a new PK -- and new FK's)
[_] etc., etc.

and even if i use a short user-assigned mnemonic (which i sometimes will
do), we run the risk of PK updates (to be religiously avoided) or of
imbedding intelligence in the PK. for example, why is one department called
S023 and another called M023? did we miss an attribute that should group the
departments by business unit or such, i.e., SALES and MANUFACTURING (or is
that M for MARKETING?)

some of these issues are important data modeling issues, others are
implementation and tuning issues

where to look in the manuals? read up in the Concepts, DBA, and Tuning
manuals. chapter and verse? interesting analogy. sometimes issues have to be
dealt with based on breadth and depth of experience and familiarity with a
number of concepts, principals, and scenarios -- when you've got serious
concerns you need to research relevant topics (in this case indexes,
datatypes, optimizer, constraints) and do some of your own testing (see
Jonathan Lewis' website www.jcomp.demon.co.uk for some excellent info on
research, testing, and logical analysis of Oracle issues). then you'll also
be able to benefit more from other people's observations, and filter our
what is relevant and what is not.

-- mcs

"Jug Ray" <jray_76@yahoo. comwrote in message
news:fd754911.0 310300430.43b5b 018@posting.goo gle.com...

Frank <fvanbortel@net scape.netwrote in message

news:<bnpdbo$nd q$1@news1.tilbu 1.nb.home.nl>.. .

Because it's a non-issue. All the answers are there (OK, OK - some
coding was actually left to the OP).

Give a man something to eat, and he will be hungry tomorrow,
teach him how to fidh, and he'll never be hungry again.
Or words the like.

Generally, we're not here to hold hands...

>
is the datatype an issue in indexes or not
i am looking also for an answer to that one
for a long time, tell me where it is in the manual
chapter, verses, book of ... as you seem to speak
for the group at large
>
what are you trying to say in "Give a man..."
I know its all there but can make sense of what you say
>
Jug

**Sanjay Minni** · Jun 27 '08, 05:27 PM

Re: optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

"mcstock" <mcstock@enquer y.comwrote in message news:<v7ydncOSC srTvTyiRVn-vg@comcast.com> ...

Sanjay,
>
You're focusing much to much attention on what really is a non-issue. For
many years, any type of NUMBER datatype has been the recommended datatype
for PKs. Overhead of NUMBER(10) vs NUMBER vs NUMBER(10,0) etc, etc. is in
reality not relevant.
>
[...snip...]
-- MCS

Thanks MCS,
Thats exactly what I was looking for

Regards
Sanjay

optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

optimum datatype for primary key column O9i

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