Approximation of old font needed

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  • Andy Mabbett

    Approximation of old font needed


    I'm about to publish (what's the web equivalent of "reprint"?) an old
    paper article, whose heading is in this font:

    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/2446437162/>

    Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS (I'll
    make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).

    Thank you.

    --
    Andy Mabbett
    Says "NO! to compulsory UK ID Cards": <http://www.no2id.net/>
    and: "Free Our Data": <http://www.freeourdata .org.uk>
    (both also on Facebook)
  • Jukka K. Korpela

    #2
    Re: Approximation of old font needed

    Scripsit Andy Mabbett:
    I'm about to publish (what's the web equivalent of "reprint"?) an old
    paper article, whose heading is in this font:
    >
    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/2446437162/>
    It looks like a relatively simple Fraktur font.
    Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS (I'll
    make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).
    I'm afraid there is no Fraktur font installed on most web users'
    computers, so in terms of authoring for the WWW, using CSS is
    ineffective. You could use an image, but what's the point? A Fraktur
    heading for modern-style text doesn't look good.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")


    Comment

    • Petr Vileta

      #3
      Re: Approximation of old font needed

      Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
      Scripsit Andy Mabbett:
      >
      >I'm about to publish (what's the web equivalent of "reprint"?) an old
      >paper article, whose heading is in this font:
      >>
      > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/2446437162/>
      >
      It looks like a relatively simple Fraktur font.
      >
      >Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS
      >(I'll make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).
      >
      I'm afraid there is no Fraktur font installed on most web users'
      computers, so in terms of authoring for the WWW, using CSS is
      ineffective. You could use an image, but what's the point? A Fraktur
      heading for modern-style text doesn't look good.
      Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft offer
      freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft". This software
      create *.eot font file from any (?) font in author's computer.
      Develop fonts, find existing fonts, and license fonts from registered vendors.

      I used it few times for some webpages.
      --
      Petr Vileta, Czech republic
      (My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
      mail from another non-spammer site please.)

      Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

      Comment

      • Joshua Cranmer

        #4
        Re: Approximation of old font needed

        Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
        Scripsit Andy Mabbett:
        >
        >I'm about to publish (what's the web equivalent of "reprint"?) an old
        >paper article, whose heading is in this font:
        >>
        > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/2446437162/>
        >
        It looks like a relatively simple Fraktur font.
        >
        >Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS (I'll
        >make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).
        >
        I'm afraid there is no Fraktur font installed on most web users'
        computers, so in terms of authoring for the WWW, using CSS is
        ineffective. You could use an image, but what's the point? A Fraktur
        heading for modern-style text doesn't look good.
        >
        Ever hear of @font-face? MS supports it, Safari does in recent builds;
        there's been some discussion on the matter over in the W3C public
        mailing list (mostly about IP rights and licensing matters).

        --
        Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
        tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

        Comment

        • Jonathan N. Little

          #5
          Re: Approximation of old font needed

          Petr Vileta wrote:
          Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft offer
          freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft". This
          software create *.eot font file from any (?) font in author's computer.
          Develop fonts, find existing fonts, and license fonts from registered vendors.

          I used it few times for some webpages.
          Not really. This is *www.authoring* not *MS.authoring*. That puppy never
          really hunted anyway...

          --
          Take care,

          Jonathan
          -------------------
          LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

          Comment

          • Jukka K. Korpela

            #6
            Re: Approximation of old font needed

            Scripsit Petr Vileta:
            Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft
            offer freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft".
            This has been discussed a few times over the years on different forums.
            Every time, when someone asks for a real-life example, the advocates of
            "Weft" turn silent. So can _you_ cite an example of a site (preferably
            yours) that actually uses "Weft" for anything else than trivial
            one-paragraph demos purported to illustrate the technique?

            (The point is that when you try something real, you soon notice that
            "Weft" is a mess.)

            --
            Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")


            Comment

            • Andy Dingley

              #7
              Re: Approximation of old font needed

              On 27 Apr, 18:43, Andy Mabbett <usenet200...@p igsonthewing.or g.uk>
              wrote:
              Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS (I'll
              make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).
              Using both "Fraktur" (as Jukka suggested) and also "Blacklette r" will
              probably trigger a suitable font choice for any desktop that has a
              hope of achieving it.

              Comment

              • Jukka K. Korpela

                #8
                Re: Approximation of old font needed

                Scripsit Andy Dingley:
                Using both "Fraktur" (as Jukka suggested) and also "Blacklette r" will
                probably trigger a suitable font choice for any desktop that has a
                hope of achieving it.
                No, I did not suggest anything of the kind. I simply classified the font
                as being a relatively simple Fraktur font.

                It's unlikely that a Fraktur font has the name "Fraktur" as such. That
                would actually be rather stupid, since the idea of a proper name (of a
                font or anything else) is to distinguish it from objects of the same
                kind. To see some actual names of Fraktur fonts, check


                You _could_ write a long list of Fraktur font names (note that not all
                fonts on those pages are really Fraktur), and _then_ you could perhaps
                say that you will "trigger a suitable font choice for any desktop that
                has a hope of achieving it", for some value of "suitable". But it would
                take time and effort to test that the fonts are at least tolerable. Even
                then, the odds of getting a Fraktur font would be 0.0187278%. (Remember
                that 83.6% of all percentages have been souped up from someone's head ,
                and the rest 17.4% are based on miscalculations .)

                And you wouldn't make _my_ browser display any Fraktur, since the only
                Fraktur font on my current computer is "F Fraktur 1".

                Moreover, you would have the "s" problem. The letter "s" has two shapes
                in Fraktur fonts, to be used according to certain (though somewhat
                varying) rules. Along with the Unicode principles, the code position for
                "s" should stand for the short variant (looking like common "s") and the
                long variant should be &#x71f; (for U+071F LATIN SMALL LETTER LONG S).
                But the various Fraktur fonts may deal with this differently. For
                example, in "F Fraktur 1", the position for "s" has the long variant
                whereas the small variant is in code position A8(used for the diaeresis
                ¨ in Latin 1, so it's a fairly free position, but this is still trickery
                that might not be compatible with anything).

                --
                Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")


                Comment

                • Andy Dingley

                  #9
                  Re: Approximation of old font needed

                  On 28 Apr, 13:10, "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorp...@cs.tu t.fiwrote:
                  Scripsit Andy Dingley:
                  >
                  Using both "Fraktur" (as Jukka suggested) and also "Blacklette r" will
                  probably trigger a suitable font choice for any desktop that has a
                  hope of achieving it.
                  >
                  No, I did not suggest anything of the kind. I simply classified the font
                  as being a relatively simple Fraktur font.
                  True, but spoken from your hallowed lips, the mere whisper of its name
                  is as an RFC 2119 MUST, write large in letters of fire. 8-)

                  Your critique of the practicality of it was about CSS font control in
                  general. Within that particular arena of pointless endeavour, Fraktur
                  (as you did mention) is as good a name to sacrifice your cargo-cult
                  chickens to as any.

                  Comment

                  • Andreas Prilop

                    #10
                    Re: Approximation of old font needed

                    On Mon, 28 Apr 2008, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
                    Moreover, you would have the "s" problem. The letter "s" has two shapes
                    in Fraktur fonts, to be used according to certain (though somewhat
                    varying) rules. Along with the Unicode principles, the code position for
                    "s" should stand for the short variant (looking like common "s") and the
                    long variant should be &#x71f; (for U+071F LATIN SMALL LETTER LONG S).
                    It is U+017F or ſ
                    The "long s" is even included in Microsoft's WGL4. So it is likely
                    that one gets at least a "Latin long s".

                    Comment

                    • Jukka K. Korpela

                      #11
                      Re: Approximation of old font needed

                      Scripsit Andreas Prilop:
                      >the long variant should be &#x71f; (for U+071F LATIN
                      >SMALL LETTER LONG S).
                      >
                      It is U+017F or ſ
                      Right, thanks for the correction.
                      The "long s" is even included in Microsoft's WGL4. So it is likely
                      that one gets at least a "Latin long s".
                      The effect isn't particularly esthetic, since in non-Fraktur fonts, it
                      doesn't look right (but rather as the upper half of the integral sign,
                      with or without a serif at the bottom and a drop at the other hand).

                      Apparently _most_ Fraktur fonts have a "short s" in place of "s", which
                      is OK, but then the problem is how to get the "long s". I don't think
                      there are many nontrivial texts with no need for "long s" when set in
                      Fraktur.

                      Although it seems clear that there is little hope of using Fraktur on
                      web pages, I studied the issue a bit, for eventual special usage and
                      also for non-www usage like printed publications.

                      I checked the fonts described at

                      and quite a many of them produce garbage or nothing when asked to
                      display U+017F. So you would need to keep the font family list short,
                      listing only fonts that have a decent "long s". Besides, some of them
                      (like Monarchia) are fake Fraktur, with some Fraktur features but a
                      general impression of something else.

                      This would leave us Karolinus Fraktur, Fleischmann Gotisch PT (which I
                      wouldn't call Fraktur proper), EF Justus Fraktur, Alte Schwabacher, and
                      maybe EF Feder Fraktur. Not that many, among dozens of fonts called
                      "Fraktur".

                      --
                      Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")


                      Comment

                      • Petr Vileta

                        #12
                        Re: Approximation of old font needed

                        Jonathan N. Little wrote:
                        Petr Vileta wrote:
                        >
                        >Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft
                        >offer freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft".
                        >This software create *.eot font file from any (?) font in author's
                        >computer. http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...bedding/weft3/
                        >I used it few times for some webpages.
                        >
                        Not really. This is *www.authoring* not *MS.authoring*. That puppy
                        never really hunted anyway...
                        Is nice to meet anti-MS fanatic :-) I'm working on Windows based PC (but for
                        Win + Lin servers) and I offer solution how to do it using Windows. Maybe
                        exist any other software for creating embeded fonts for Linux or OS/2 but I
                        haven't knowledge about it. It's all.

                        Some links:




                        BTW: I'm running one domain on my Linux server where eot font work well for
                        Windows and Linux visitors too.
                        --
                        Petr Vileta, Czech republic
                        (My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
                        mail from another non-spammer site please.)

                        Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

                        Comment

                        • Petr Vileta

                          #13
                          Re: Approximation of old font needed

                          Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
                          Scripsit Petr Vileta:
                          >
                          >Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft
                          >offer freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft".
                          >
                          This has been discussed a few times over the years on different
                          forums. Every time, when someone asks for a real-life example, the
                          advocates of "Weft" turn silent. So can _you_ cite an example of a
                          site (preferably yours) that actually uses "Weft" for anything else
                          than trivial one-paragraph demos purported to illustrate the
                          technique?
                          For example http://www.q-artplzen.cz
                          Menu used Verdana and all other Tahoma fonts. But other then Windows visitors
                          not have these fonts and for this reason I used embeded fonts for this site.
                          Domain is hosted on Linux server of course ;-)

                          To be correct I must say that Weft is not too user friendly, sometime hang
                          during font create but when you create eot font this work in almost all known
                          browsers.
                          --
                          Petr Vileta, Czech republic
                          (My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
                          mail from another non-spammer site please.)

                          Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

                          Comment

                          • Petr Vileta

                            #14
                            Re: Approximation of old font needed

                            Andy Dingley wrote:
                            On 27 Apr, 18:43, Andy Mabbett <usenet200...@p igsonthewing.or g.uk>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >Can anyone kindly suggest a similar font suitable for use in CSS
                            >(I'll make sure something less fancy is specified as a fallback).
                            >
                            Using both "Fraktur" (as Jukka suggested) and also "Blacklette r" will
                            probably trigger a suitable font choice for any desktop that has a
                            hope of achieving it.
                            Except for Windows visitors ;-) I have basic instalation of Win-XP and I have
                            not these fonts.
                            --
                            Petr Vileta, Czech republic
                            (My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
                            mail from another non-spammer site please.)

                            Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

                            Comment

                            • Jonathan N. Little

                              #15
                              Re: Approximation of old font needed

                              Petr Vileta wrote:
                              Jonathan N. Little wrote:
                              >Petr Vileta wrote:
                              >>
                              >>Ehm, sorry, but Andy can create "web" font for server. Miscro$oft
                              >>offer freeware (really, freeware from M$) for this called "Weft".
                              >>This software create *.eot font file from any (?) font in author's
                              >>computer. http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...bedding/weft3/
                              >>I used it few times for some webpages.
                              >>
                              >Not really. This is *www.authoring* not *MS.authoring*. That puppy
                              >never really hunted anyway...
                              >
                              Is nice to meet anti-MS fanatic :-)
                              I am not, take a peek at my header.
                              I'm working on Windows based PC (but
                              for Win + Lin servers) and I offer solution how to do it using Windows.
                              Ditto. Point is it is *not* a solution, not even for Windows. As Jukka
                              said, show a real working example of this technology. It is bogus-ware.
                              Microsoft doesn't even use it. Therefore it is a non-solution.
                              So far none of those birds flew either.
                              BTW: I'm running one domain on my Linux server where eot font work well
                              for Windows and Linux visitors too.
                              For Linux visitors? How? IE + Wine?


                              --
                              Take care,

                              Jonathan
                              -------------------
                              LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

                              Comment

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