Popups, web applications, accessibility

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Philipp Lenssen wrote:

(quoting me saying:)[color=blue][color=green]
> > For abbreviations, I'd use <abbr>, and then (if I'm feeling generous
> > on the day) wrap that in a <span class="abbr"> for the benefit of[/color][/color]
[...MSIE users]
[color=blue]
> I use <acronym> because the display of title-text as pop-up-text is
> broken in IE for <abbr>.[/color]

So you take MS's defective software as an excuse to misrepresent the
nature of abbreviations? No thanks.
[color=blue]
> It is not for <acronym>. The largest
> percentage of browsers used to access my websites (and those of others,
> I guess) is IE.[/color]

So what? You acknowledge that it is broken.
[color=blue]
> Theoretically I agree,[/color]

I find your cure to be worse than the disease. My workaround cannot
be claimed to be pretty, but at least it produces the result that you
seem to be looking for, without potential side-effects.
[color=blue]
> and prefer <abbr> because how something is
> read-out (whether as one word or separate letters) is more or less
> presentational, and basically I believe the W3C is confusing the two as
> well.[/color]

I see. Well, I don't think I agree; but since the HTML4
(non-)definition of this term is useless/counterproducti ve (as you
seem to agree), it hardly matters.

best regards

[Philipp Lenssen]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I use <acronym> because the display of title-text as pop-up-text is
> > broken in IE for <abbr>.[/color]
>
> So you take MS's defective software as an excuse to misrepresent the
> nature of abbreviations? No thanks.
>[/color]

Like I mentioned, the by-far largest percentage of users accessing my
sites do so via IE (yeah, some hiding Operas might be there as well).
Even before HTML validity, I put pragmatic concerns such as how most
visitors will see stuff. I put HTML validity on top as mostly it
doesn't interfere with my top-priority. In the case of <abbr> vs
<acronym> it does interfere. Also, since both elements are somewhat
misdefined by the W3C themselves, I think it harldy doesn't matter. It
seems you think along the same terms at least in this regard.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > It is not for <acronym>. The largest
> > percentage of browsers used to access my websites (and those of
> > others, I guess) is IE.[/color]
>
> So what? You acknowledge that it is broken.
>[/color]

I don't expect of my visitors to share my knowledge, nor to upgrade
their browser just to display my pages correctly.
[color=blue]
> My workaround cannot
> be claimed to be pretty, but at least it produces the result that you
> seem to be looking for, without potential side-effects.
>[/color]

So you said you mark it up as <dfn>? I have to check into that next
time. Checking it now, it seems there's not a single example in the
spec.

"Indicates that this is the defining instance of the enclosed term."

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-DFN

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck does that mean?


--
Google Blogoscoped

http://blog.outer-court.com

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Philipp Lenssen wrote:

[having snipped the bit where I had written:][color=blue][color=green]
> > For abbreviations, I'd use <abbr>, and then (if I'm feeling generous
> > on the day) wrap that in a <span class="abbr"> for the benefit of[/color][/color]
[...MSIE users]
[color=blue]
> So you said you mark it up as <dfn>?[/color]

I mentioned <dfn> earlier, in a different context. What I said about
abbreviations was in the posting that you were following-up to, and
which I have re-instated above.

Bye.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4 .53.03101816385 40.29936@ppepc5 6.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..[color=blue]
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Harlan Messinger wrote:
>
> [re: acronym][color=green]
> > Since it's an ordinary English word, and they discuss it alongside
> > "abbreviati on" (granted that they misinterpret the distinction between[/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > two), maybe they felt their examples established the usage well enough.[/color]
>
> You might find the discussions on record which went on during the
> drafting of HTML4. I followed them (and occasionally put my spoke
> into the discussion...) at the time.
>
> I think the outcome of the discussion (against my wishes and those of
> a minority of others) could be crudely summarised as: "everyone knows
> what an acronym is - the discussions have shown that individuals agree
> that everyone should know what an acronym is - just that their
> definitions are incompatible with each other! So, we 'solve' the
> problem by tossing the mutually-incompatible examples into the
> specification, and leaving the users of HTML4 to work something out
> for themselves."
>[color=green]
> > seems clear enough to me what the intent is,[/color]
>
> Does it? I think I'd have to refer you back to the drafting
> discussions. This has also been discussed here, several times since,
> and I've no Round Tuits left for doing it again.
>[color=green]
> > and it works[/color]
>
> With the greatest of respect, you seem to be taking a particularly
> narrow view of "works", even by the standards of previous discussions
> on the topic.
>[/color]

Well, I suppose. Often I realize that the details discussed in the process
of creating standards revolve around issues of which I had never been aware
before, since the people are involved are more intimately familiar with the
field than I am. From *my* perspective, I don't even think it would matter
if there were a single tag to cover *both* acronyms and abbreviations, other
than that if they called it <ABBR>, then some would complain that acronyms
aren't abbreviations!

[color=blue][color=green]
> > in the current Netscape and IE versions. I've read that it's useful
> > for table headings, as well, when the text that ought to be read by
> > the speech synthesizer is somewhat different from what's being
> > displayed for sighted readers.[/color]
>
> I have this hunch that you're describing a productive use of the
> "title=" attribute in HTML4 - by no means confined to the "acronym"
> element.[/color]

Hmm. I didn't realize that. I just tried the title attribute in a SPAN and I
see that it works (by which, I mean that my browsers show the title
attribute in a bubble). Which leaves me not knowing why <abbr> and <acronym>
exist at all. Don't get me wrong--I'm not arguing that they are unnecessary.
I really just don't know what their history is or why I, as a page composer,
would want to use them without also wishing that I had tags to denote
"sics", back-formations, names of people, names of places, names of
organizations, trade names, or even the various parts of speech. I guess I
should do some research. Can you tell me where to look?

[snipping the rest, which addresses my previous unawareness of the
generality of the title attribute]

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
news:JZYjb.471$ Rc4.1353221@new sfep1-win.server.ntli .net...[color=blue]
> Harlan Messinger wrote:[color=green]
> > "Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
> > news:G_Vjb.300$ xr1.185@newsfep 1-gui.server.ntli .net...[color=darkred]
> >> Harlan Messinger wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> > Actually--and years of experience with users of all kinds of
> >> > applications back me up on this--I know well enough that many
> >> > people don't have the slightest idea about some of the features
> >> > available to them that you and I take for granted, beyond those
> >> > that are visible directly on the main screen. Open a link in a new
> >> > windows? Open the current page in a new window? Change your font
> >> > size? Even without doing a survey, I'm fairly confident that a
> >> > majority of browser users don't know how to do those things and
> >> > may not even be aware that they are available. That's why I have
> >> > some trouble with the idea of leaving all the choices to users.
> >> > How can they know what their own preferences are if they don't
> >> > know that the alternatives exist?
> >>
> >> Then educate them, don't patronise them.[/color]
> >
> > Are there many web sites that interrupt their own presentations to
> > give their users an education in using their own browsers? And how do
> > you do that if you don't know what browsers they're using?[/color]
>
> Strawman - who said anything about telling them about their own browsers?[/color]
I[color=blue]
> didn't.[/color]

You suggested that I educate them, in regard to my remark that they don't
know how to use their own browser. So if teaching them how to use their own
browser is not what you meant, then I've lost you.
[color=blue]
>
> You appear above to be proposing to do things on the user's behalf without
> knowing enough about them or their browsers to justify what you are[/color]
proposing.[color=blue]
>
> The truth is, you simply don't know whether having pop-ups or whatever[/color]
will be[color=blue]
> good or bad for any particular user. It will CERTAINLY be bad for some, as[/color]
you[color=blue]
> have been told here.[/color]

What I'm gathering is that the people for whom it's bad to have them, it's
bad in the sense that it annoys them. For the people for whom it's bad not
to have them, it's because they lack the knowledge to make the presentation
more effective on their own. If I can choose to favor either group of
people, why isn't it reasonably my choice to decide whom to favor?
[color=blue]
>
> If you do simple and predictable things, as much like other web sites do[/color]
as[color=blue]
> possible, you stand most chance that they will be able to access your web[/color]
site[color=blue]
> to the extent that they can access others.[/color]

People are used to certain kinds of links causing windows to pop up from
having encountered this feature on many web sites. In what way is it
unpredictable? (At least, if I give an indication that a new window will
appear.)
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > As for the "patronizin g" part, is it really patronizing to make the
> > site usable for them as they are instead of as you think they should
> > be? This whole discussion is about usability, but you appear to be
> > suggesting that one forsake usability by and convenience for the
> > unsophisticated in favor of catering to the pet peeves of the
> > sophisticated. Surely you don't mean that![/color]
>
> As you point out above, you don't know much about the people and the UAs[/color]
who[color=blue]
> will be accessing your site. You don't know them "as they are". So with[/color]
the[color=blue]
> best will in the world, you may make things better for some while screwing[/color]
up[color=blue]
> others. Unfortunately, just about every decision you make will reject some
> people! In the end, you probably have 2 options, and they may even be[/color]
similar:[color=blue]
>
> 1. Be as much like lots of other valuable web sites as possible. Then[/color]
users[color=blue]
> can adapt to all of them + yours.
>
> 2. Be simple and predictable, so that users are able to adapt to your web[/color]
site[color=blue]
> rapidly.
>
> My observation is that most web sites don't have pop-ups. (But I accept[/color]
that[color=blue]
> may be because they are so irritating that I tend to avoid those that do!)[/color]

Most web sites aren't providing glossaries, context-sensitive help screens,
or control panels. I agree about not using pop-ups gratuitously, but I
believe that these are useful applications for them.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fb69 4ff1dc4bda98b5b a@news.odyssey. net...[color=blue]
> I think I can suggest two such reasons. The first: what does an
> aural browser do with a popup?[/color]

What does an aural browser do with *any* new window? Actually, why isn't
this the OS's job? How does a visually impaired user manage with a windowing
OS at all if the software being used doesn't announce that the focus has
shifted to another window?
[color=blue]
>Can a visually impaired user "see"
> the popup window? I rather doubt it. The second reason flows from
> current practice by users.[/color]

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Stanimir Stamenkov" <s7an10@netscap e.net> wrote in message
news:bmr7ak$q2o b0$1@ID-207379.news.uni-berlin.de...[color=blue]
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Well, imagine the word processing analogy, where your document[/color][/color]
disappears[color=blue][color=green]
> > every time you want to change your font, and is replaced by the
> > font-changing interface. Then, to see the effect of your change, you[/color][/color]
have to[color=blue][color=green]
> > click OK and wait till your document redisplays. If you don't like the
> > result, you have to open the font display all over again.[/color]
>
> Well, in the context of a web browser what prevents the user of
> opening a second window with the "Change Font" interface document on
> his/her demand?[/color]

I'm trying to find out what the objection of *others* is to such a thing.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Nick Kew" <nick@fenris.we bthing.com> wrote in message
news:0e8pmb.331 .ln@jarl.webthi ng.com...[color=blue]
> In article <bmouns$obue2$1 @id-114100.news.uni-berlin.de>, one of infinite[/color]
monkeys[color=blue]
> at the keyboard of "Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense[/color][/color]
for[color=blue][color=green]
> > precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional[/color][/color]
locally-installed[color=blue][color=green]
> > application interfaces.[/color]
>
> Fair enough so far. I agree they're appropriate in some circumstances.
>[color=green]
> > I understand some people object,[/color]
>
> To popups in general, or yours in particular? They get a bad name on the
> Web because thare are far more examples of abuse than of good use.
> Of course I can't say which category yours fall into.
>[color=green]
> > Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
> > same reasons. But now, learning about accessibility issues, I have read[/color][/color]
that[color=blue][color=green]
> > popups are troublesome for people using adaptive software for visual
> > impairments. I would have thought that it might suffice to provide a
> > positive indication to such users that a link will open a separate[/color][/color]
window,[color=blue]
>
> But that's exactly what the WCAG says: don't open new windows without
> warning the user in advance! If people object, either you're doing[/color]
something[color=blue]
> else wrong (maybe *how* or *when* you open popups) or someone is being
> overly dogmatic.
>
> I suggest you read the WCAG and perhaps browse or join relevant[/color]
mailinglists,[color=blue]
> rather than rely on what may be a suspect source.[/color]

I did read it, and just took another look back at it, and it does confirm
that you shouldn't use popups WITHOUT NOTIFYING THE USER. It's just that
I've read notes elsewhere that you shouldn't use them at all. I think that
was the basis for my beginning this thread.

I'm still looking for alternatives. One person mentioned something like
in-page "popups", but I haven't seen a response yet when I asked what this
meant.

[Jeff Kish]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:47:06 GMT, jim@jibbering.c om (Jim Ley) wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:35:40 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
><h.messinger@c omcast.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?
>>
>>Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense for
>>precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional locally-installed
>>application interfaces.[/color]
>
>Not really, as they can't be controlled in the same way - for example
>you can't ensure they're modal, or are closed at the same time as the
>parent etc.
>[color=green]
>>Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
>>same reasons.[/color]
>
>It's easy enough to use script to open in page popups in modern
>browsers which falls back gracefully in older ones, there's no need to
>use popups - the main reason not to use them of course, is that too
>many people have them turned off these days.
>
>Jim.[/color]
Jim, how does one "turn off" popups?
Thanks
Jeff
Jeff Kish

[Barry Pearson]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

Harlan Messinger wrote:
[snip][color=blue]
> I'm still looking for alternatives. One person mentioned something
> like in-page "popups", but I haven't seen a response yet when I asked
> what this meant.[/color]

I had never heard of them, but a Google search on the phrase yielded to
following interesting pages. I don't know if they are what Jim Ley meant.

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Brian]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

Harlan Messinger wrote:[color=blue]
> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fb69 4ff1dc4bda98b5b a@news.odyssey. net...
>[color=green]
>>I think I can suggest two such reasons. The first: what does an
>>aural browser do with a popup?[/color]
>
> What does an aural browser do with *any* new window?[/color]

Isnt' that a reason to avoid pop-ups?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility


"Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
news:oeTkb.533$ Av3.431182@news fep1-win.server.ntli .net...[color=blue]
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
> [snip][color=green]
> > I'm still looking for alternatives. One person mentioned something
> > like in-page "popups", but I haven't seen a response yet when I asked
> > what this meant.[/color]
>
> I had never heard of them, but a Google search on the phrase yielded to
> following interesting pages. I don't know if they are what Jim Ley meant.
>
> http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html
>
> http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html[/color]

If that's what he meant, then they're definitely no good, because there
isn't anyway to notify a non-visual user what's appearing--or disappearing,
and where.

[Brian]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

Jeff Kish wrote:[color=blue]
>
> how does one "turn off" popups?[/color]

First, one acquires an actual web browser [1], one that assigns
control to the user, where it belongs. Mozilla and Opera are two that
I know allow the user to turn off popups.

[1] Not, as Alan Flavell describes, an operating system component,
i.e., not MSIE/Win.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Peter Foti]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

"Brian" <usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote in
message news:7IUkb.5101 19$2x.215352@rw crnsc52.ops.asp .att.net...[color=blue]
> Jeff Kish wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > how does one "turn off" popups?[/color]
>
> First, one acquires an actual web browser [1], one that assigns
> control to the user, where it belongs. Mozilla and Opera are two that
> I know allow the user to turn off popups.
>
> [1] Not, as Alan Flavell describes, an operating system component,
> i.e., not MSIE/Win.[/color]

You could also grab some third party software to add to your browser. For
example, the Google toolbar (a *GREAT* utility) includes a popup blocker.

http://toolbar.google.com/

Regards,
Peter Foti

[Barry Pearson]

Re: Popups, web applications, accessibility

Brian wrote:[color=blue]
> Jeff Kish wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> how does one "turn off" popups?[/color]
>
> First, one acquires an actual web browser [1], one that assigns
> control to the user, where it belongs. Mozilla and Opera are two that
> I know allow the user to turn off popups.
>
> [1] Not, as Alan Flavell describes, an operating system component,
> i.e., not MSIE/Win.[/color]

Until recently, I used {IE 6 + Free Surfer + Google Toolbar}. Both Free Surfer
& Google Toolbar can inhibit pop-ups.

Now I use {IE 6 + Avant Browser + Google Toolbar}. This is even better. In
fact, it is the best (when I am a web user rather than a web developer)
browsing system I have ever used. And I have {Firebird 0.7 + web developer's
toolbar}, Opera 7.2, Netscape 7.1, and Amaya 8.1b available to me at the touch
of a button.

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/