coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

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  • gswork@mailcity.com

    coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

    i hadn't designed a web page from the ground up for about 9 years, then
    i was asked to do one. I'd dabbled with html and vaigly kept up with
    some of the developments but other than that i've been stuck in 1996-7
    thinking looking at web pages become more and more sophistocated (and
    frequently slower to load!)

    Back then html 3.2 was still the norm and the idea of seperating
    structure and content, let alone style and structure was only just
    emerging into general use. asp and server side scripting was new,
    cgi and perl was the common way to get interactivity, plus java applets
    and javascript. Most pages settled on being static

    pages were either plain or gaudily colored, many folks had their
    geocities home sites either cobbled together or simply borne of some
    document resulting from 'save as html'. Netscape 2 and IE3 users were
    still common.

    My web sites werent very good either!

    The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
    have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
    graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
    navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
    consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
    http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.

    The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
    html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
    a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
    plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
    around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
    examples.

    After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
    experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
    do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)

    seperate structure from style from content.

    the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
    to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
    css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
    be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
    server side includes to using a database and some server side
    scripting.

    Does that seem like a good approach to you? I ought to get a good
    book too, any recommendations ? Finally - out of interest - when did
    you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?

  • David Dorward

    #2
    Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

    gswork@mailcity .com wrote:
    [color=blue]
    > the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
    > to be done with html,[/color]

    Layout is presentation and is the job of style sheets. HTML should mark up
    the content to describe its structure, semantics, and relationships with
    other resources.
    [color=blue]
    > the style worked out seperately and applied with
    > css (css1 seems most widely compatible)[/color]

    It is also rather limited. There is plenty of CSS 2 that you can use quite
    happily.
    [color=blue]
    > and content - well content can be managed in so many ways from just
    > leaving it in the html, to using server side includes to using a database
    > and some server side scripting.[/color]

    The content should be in the markup document by the time it is delivered to
    the user agent. How you put it together is up to you.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me .uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

    Comment

    • Adrienne Boswell

      #3
      Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

      Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gswork@mailcity .com writing in
      news:1136887816 .120988.204160@ g49g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com:
      [color=blue]
      > The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
      > have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
      > graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
      > navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
      > consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
      > http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.[/color]

      Well, hopefully you won't use tables for structure. I think my biggest
      beef with using tables instead of CSS is that if something has to be
      changed site wide, with CSS it's only an external stylesheet, with tables,
      it can be every single page. Additionally, hearing a page using layout
      tables spoken by some screen readers is torture.[color=blue]
      >
      > The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
      > html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
      > a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
      > plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
      > around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
      > examples.[/color]

      You might want to check out HTML-Kit at <http://www.chami.com/html-kit/>, a
      very good text editor that can integrate with TopStyle, and has hundreds of
      plugins that you can use, based on your needs. You can also write your own
      plugins. It also has FTP capability. TopStyle has its own HTML editor,
      but I like HTML-Kit much better.
      [color=blue]
      >
      > After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
      > experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
      > do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)
      >
      > seperate structure from style from content.
      >
      > the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
      > to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
      > css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
      > be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
      > server side includes to using a database and some server side
      > scripting.
      >
      > Does that seem like a good approach to you?[/color]

      Use semantic markup, use elements for what they are. Use heading markup
      for headings, list markup for lists including navigation lists, paragraphs
      for paragraphs, tables for tabular data, etc. Try to leave all
      presentation to an external stylesheet, and if you are going to be using
      javascript, use an external script as well.

      I ought to get a good[color=blue]
      > book too, any recommendations ?[/color]

      I really wouldn't bother that much with a book. By the time the book is
      published, everything has changed. Your best bet is the W3
      recommendations . I would also suggest <http://www.blooberry.c om/indexdot/>
      for browser issues with HTML and CSS.
      [color=blue]
      > Finally - out of interest - when did
      > you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?
      >[/color]

      I started in 1996, working with a friend of mine who wanted to do online
      commodity trading recommendations . I knew nothing, and we first tried to
      publish it in Word Perfect. Then I got Composer, and I started viewing
      source, and then I got AceHTML version 3. I did a lot of yucky stuff in
      tables and frames, and then I got smart. Now, I am a developer
      (ASP/PHP/SQL/HTML Strict), and I have a handful of good clients.



      --
      Adrienne Boswell
      Arbpen Consulting will help you harness valuable insights and translate them into tangible results by merging data and strategy.

      Please respond to the group so others can share

      Comment

      • DC

        #4
        Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

        Adrienne Boswell wrote:
        [color=blue]
        > User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09[/color]

        [...]

        Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?

        --
        DC Linux RU #10001110110001 11001

        The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many'
        and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.

        Comment

        • Adrienne Boswell

          #5
          Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

          Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dcmoose@myreal box.com> writing
          in news:slrnds839n .dtg.dcmoose@mo osemeat.ca.INVA LID:
          [color=blue]
          > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
          >[color=green]
          >> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09[/color]
          >
          > [...]
          >
          > Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
          >[/color]

          Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
          of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
          from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
          made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.

          --
          Adrienne Boswell
          Arbpen Consulting will help you harness valuable insights and translate them into tangible results by merging data and strategy.

          Please respond to the group so others can share

          Comment

          • Big Bill

            #6
            Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

            On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, Adrienne Boswell
            <arbpen2003@sbc global.net> wrote:
            [color=blue]
            >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dcmoose@myreal box.com> writing
            >in news:slrnds839n .dtg.dcmoose@mo osemeat.ca.INVA LID:
            >[color=green]
            >> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
            >>[color=darkred]
            >>> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09[/color]
            >>
            >> [...]
            >>
            >> Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
            >>[/color]
            >
            >Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
            >of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
            >from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
            >made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.[/color]

            Pizza was pretty much the first plates. I tried making fresh bread
            with a machine and it was very nice but there's so much bread
            available for a few pennies these days, some of it very pleasant, it
            just seems like too much effort to make my own.

            BB
            http://www.crystal-liaison.com/david...ges/index.html kruse@crystal-liaison.com
            Gifty! Shiny!

            Comment

            • Tony

              #7
              Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

              Adrienne Boswell wrote:[color=blue]
              >
              > I also make tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes...[/color]

              Ooh- would you care to share? I've never been able to do that quite
              right..

              Comment

              • Matt Silberstein

                #8
                Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
                comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
                <arbpen2003@sbc global.net> in
                <Xns9747DB165CB 37arbpenyahooco m@69.28.186.121 > wrote:
                [color=blue]
                >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dcmoose@myreal box.com> writing
                >in news:slrnds839n .dtg.dcmoose@mo osemeat.ca.INVA LID:
                >[color=green]
                >> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
                >>[color=darkred]
                >>> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09[/color]
                >>
                >> [...]
                >>
                >> Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
                >>[/color]
                >
                >Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
                >of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
                >from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
                >made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.[/color]

                Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
                using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
                since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
                year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
                a neighbor.

                --
                Matt Silberstein

                Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

                This website is for sale! beawitness.org is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, beawitness.org has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!


                SLOT777 adalah salah satu situs judi slot 777 online yang di kenal gacor dan terpercaya gampang menang maxwin di Indonesia. Mainkan sekarang juga game slot gacor dengan apk slot 777 hanya di Theslot777.


                "Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

                Comment

                • gswork@mailcity.com

                  #9
                  Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years


                  David Dorward wrote:[color=blue]
                  > gswork@mailcity .com wrote:
                  >[color=green]
                  > > the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
                  > > to be done with html,[/color]
                  >
                  > Layout is presentation and is the job of style sheets. HTML should mark up
                  > the content to describe its structure, semantics, and relationships with
                  > other resources.
                  >[color=green]
                  > > the style worked out seperately and applied with
                  > > css (css1 seems most widely compatible)[/color]
                  >
                  > It is also rather limited. There is plenty of CSS 2 that you can use quite
                  > happily.[/color]

                  i've been reading that netscape 4 is just about the only browser in
                  [small but] regular use that doesnt know css2 at all well, and that
                  other browsers stumble on some parts of css2. Other than that it
                  sounds great, especially for layout. It explains that tidy (but
                  samey) look so many sites have these days.

                  Comment

                  • Toby Inkster

                    #10
                    Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                    Adrienne Boswell wrote:
                    [color=blue]
                    > Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
                    > of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
                    > from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
                    > made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.[/color]

                    But you don't make your own cheese? Talk about the age of convenience! I
                    make tomato sause, pasta and pizza dough from scratch, but bread is left
                    to the fine bakers at Waitrose.

                    Home made pasta is so much nicer than shop-bought -- even if you buy the
                    fancy "fresh" pasta in the shops. Home made is more "meaty" (though of
                    couse, not in the sense that it contains meat).

                    --
                    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
                    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

                    Comment

                    • gswork@mailcity.com

                      #11
                      Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years


                      Adrienne Boswell wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gswork@mailcity .com writing in
                      > news:1136887816 .120988.204160@ g49g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com:
                      >[color=green]
                      > > The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
                      > > have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
                      > > graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
                      > > navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
                      > > consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
                      > > http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.[/color]
                      >
                      > Well, hopefully you won't use tables for structure. I think my biggest
                      > beef with using tables instead of CSS is that if something has to be
                      > changed site wide, with CSS it's only an external stylesheet, with tables,
                      > it can be every single page. Additionally, hearing a page using layout
                      > tables spoken by some screen readers is torture.[/color]

                      i've been reading up a little more and indeed using CSS instead of
                      tables is a real release from tabling for layout like it used to be.
                      Looking at the css source of some sites is revealing.
                      [color=blue][color=green]
                      > >
                      > > The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
                      > > html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
                      > > a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
                      > > plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
                      > > around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
                      > > examples.[/color]
                      >
                      > You might want to check out HTML-Kit at <http://www.chami.com/html-kit/>, a
                      > very good text editor that can integrate with TopStyle, and has hundreds of
                      > plugins that you can use, based on your needs. You can also write your own
                      > plugins. It also has FTP capability. TopStyle has its own HTML editor,
                      > but I like HTML-Kit much better.[/color]

                      I'll check that one too, thanks
                      [color=blue][color=green]
                      > > After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
                      > > experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
                      > > do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)
                      > >
                      > > seperate structure from style from content.
                      > >
                      > > the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
                      > > to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
                      > > css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
                      > > be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
                      > > server side includes to using a database and some server side
                      > > scripting.
                      > >
                      > > Does that seem like a good approach to you?[/color]
                      >
                      > Use semantic markup, use elements for what they are. Use heading markup
                      > for headings, list markup for lists including navigation lists, paragraphs
                      > for paragraphs, tables for tabular data, etc. Try to leave all
                      > presentation to an external stylesheet, and if you are going to be using
                      > javascript, use an external script as well.[/color]

                      When you say external for javascript do you mean an included file?
                      [color=blue]
                      > I ought to get a good[color=green]
                      > > book too, any recommendations ?[/color]
                      >
                      > I really wouldn't bother that much with a book. By the time the book is
                      > published, everything has changed. Your best bet is the W3
                      > recommendations . I would also suggest <http://www.blooberry.c om/indexdot/>
                      > for browser issues with HTML and CSS.[/color]

                      Thanks. Hasn't HTML4 and CSS 1&2 been around since the late 90's in a
                      stable form (even if browsers took a little longer to catch up). That
                      would appear a stable enough situation to write a good book for - or is
                      it the design and methods used that change all the time?

                      I remember way back that everything was so fast moving, browsers
                      included, that nothing was standards compliant.
                      [color=blue][color=green]
                      > > Finally - out of interest - when did
                      > > you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?
                      > >[/color]
                      >
                      > I started in 1996, working with a friend of mine who wanted to do online
                      > commodity trading recommendations . I knew nothing, and we first tried to
                      > publish it in Word Perfect. Then I got Composer, and I started viewing
                      > source, and then I got AceHTML version 3. I did a lot of yucky stuff in
                      > tables and frames, and then I got smart. Now, I am a developer
                      > (ASP/PHP/SQL/HTML Strict), and I have a handful of good clients.[/color]

                      Having that suite of skills is the way to go. Now and then i'll find
                      a site that hasnt been updated since the late 90's, kinda nostalgic!

                      The only criticism i'd have of modern sites is that, for all their
                      elegance, they tend to look the same, following familiar layout
                      schemes. It's good in the sense that sites become consistent in the
                      way one navigates etc (like the way Windows applications tend to follow
                      an informal standard layout), but perhaps a little of that pioneering
                      spark is gone.

                      Then again, back in the mid 90's it was all frames, gaudy colors and
                      gifs!

                      Comment

                      • Tony

                        #12
                        Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                        Matt Silberstein wrote:[color=blue]
                        > Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
                        > using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
                        > since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
                        > year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
                        > a neighbor.[/color]

                        They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
                        area...

                        Comment

                        • Matt Silberstein

                          #13
                          Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                          On 12 Jan 2006 11:05:04 -0800, in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html
                          , "Tony" <tony23@dslextr eme.com> in
                          <1137092704.486 348.282170@o13g 2000cwo.googleg roups.com> wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          >Matt Silberstein wrote:[color=green]
                          >> Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
                          >> using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
                          >> since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
                          >> year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
                          >> a neighbor.[/color]
                          >
                          >They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
                          >area...[/color]

                          This time of year? Too much water and not enough sun.


                          --
                          Matt Silberstein

                          Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

                          This website is for sale! beawitness.org is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, beawitness.org has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!


                          SLOT777 adalah salah satu situs judi slot 777 online yang di kenal gacor dan terpercaya gampang menang maxwin di Indonesia. Mainkan sekarang juga game slot gacor dengan apk slot 777 hanya di Theslot777.


                          "Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

                          Comment

                          • Andy Dingley

                            #14
                            Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                            On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:37:55 +0000, Toby Inkster
                            <usenet200601@t obyinkster.co.u k> wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            >Home made pasta is so much nicer than shop-bought -[/color]

                            That depends if you extrude it through a stainless steel or bronze die.

                            Some of us even cast our own pasta-extruding dies 8-)

                            Comment

                            • Big Bill

                              #15
                              Re: coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

                              On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:28:34 GMT, Matt Silberstein
                              <RemoveThisPref ixmatts2nospam@ ix.netcom.com> wrote:
                              [color=blue]
                              >On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
                              >comp.infosyste ms.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
                              ><arbpen2003@sb cglobal.net> in
                              ><Xns9747DB165C B37arbpenyahooc om@69.28.186.12 1> wrote:
                              >[color=green]
                              >>Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dcmoose@myreal box.com> writing
                              >>in news:slrnds839n .dtg.dcmoose@mo osemeat.ca.INVA LID:
                              >>[color=darkred]
                              >>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
                              >>>
                              >>>> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09
                              >>>
                              >>> [...]
                              >>>
                              >>> Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
                              >>>[/color]
                              >>
                              >>Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
                              >>of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
                              >>from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
                              >>made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.[/color]
                              >
                              >Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
                              >using high quality canned tomatoes.[/color]

                              Care to name a brand?

                              BB


                              http://www.crystal-liaison.com/comfo...les/index.html kruse@crystal-liaison.com
                              Gifty! Shiny! BB!

                              Comment

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