Footnote style

[James A. Donald]

In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
slightly smaller type.

converting a book to html, pages are bottomless, so we can put the
footnote in a separate link, or create a footnote div class that
floats right.

Links are probably what the author would have used had he been writing
in html, but divs that float right are closer to the spirit of the
original work, and enables the footnote to be seen in context, as was
originally intended.

Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.

How have other people solved this problem?

--

http://www.jim.com

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: Footnote style

James A. Donald wrote:
[color=blue]
> In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
> slightly smaller type.[/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
> Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
> a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.[/color]

Yes, that is bad. Use CSS.
[color=blue]
> How have other people solved this problem?[/color]

Try this:

span.footnote { float: right; font-size: 85%; }

<p>This is a paragraph of content¹... blah blah
<span class="footnote ">1. Footnote goes here.</span>
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah</p>

--
-bts
-When motorcycling, never follow a pig truck

[James A. Donald]

Re: Footnote style

--
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 03:53:45 GMT, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"[color=blue]
> Try this:
>
> span.footnote { float: right; font-size: 85%; }
>
> <p>This is a paragraph of content¹... blah blah
> <span class="footnote ">1. Footnote goes here.</span>
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah</p>[/color]

That is very helpful, but what I really wanted to ask is, is this a
good idea - is this how other people solve the problem of footnotes,
rather than how do other people get an appropriate font-size for a
footnote.

--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3Tdzcl VpR0+pr3YYQdkG
QIvDtZsFGJNItif Rrlh50rxKN941WQ UBPyNqVvqw
4ZIhDsWRAq1v4LO mAYo3UfrWzyMhg4 EwNPooqIIlU


--

http://www.jim.com

[mbstevens]

Re: Footnote style

James A. Donald wrote:
[color=blue]
> Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
> a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.[/color]

You can _not_ specify the main font and specify a _percentage_
of whatever that size happens to be for the footnotes.

Footnotes can mostly be avoided on the web by giving each its
own little .html file, linked to by the main exposition. No
need to clutter the page. Let the _reader_ decide whether it
will come up as a replacement page, a new tab, or a popup.

You could try a separate column, but that limits how large the
visitor can make the text of the main exposition, and the
footnote column is likely to have large amounts of unused space
in it.

Besides, the web itself is largely interlinked notes that
reference each other. What's important over here is just a
footnote to someone over there. Relativity of relevance rules.
You're denying visitors the ability to easily bookmark just the
footnote. You can use real footnotes, but it seems quaint and
outdated.
--
mbstevens

http://www.mbstevens.com/

[Tim]

Re: Footnote style

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:38:54 -0700, James A. Donald sent:
[color=blue]
> Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get a
> slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.[/color]

Standard warning about smaller fonts on a low resolution device (i.e. just
about all VDUs) being hard to read not withstanding, have you not heard of
the small element?

e.g. <p>Normal text <small>with a bit smaller text</small>.</p>

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please destroy some files yourself.

[Toby Inkster]

Re: Footnote style

James A. Donald wrote:
[color=blue]
> Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font[/color]

<small>...</small>

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

[Jake]

Re: Footnote style

In message <6qqej19iaabs0m mi27kf3qahjlrb1 0fh03@4ax.com>, James A. Donald
<jamesd@echeque .com> writes[color=blue]
>In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
>slightly smaller type.
>
>converting a book to html, pages are bottomless, so we can put the
>footnote in a separate link, or create a footnote div class that
>floats right.
>
>Links are probably what the author would have used had he been writing
>in html, but divs that float right are closer to the spirit of the
>original work, and enables the footnote to be seen in context, as was
>originally intended.
>
>Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
>a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
>document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.
>
>How have other people solved this problem?
>
>--
>http://www.jim.com[/color]

I've recently been converting a hundred-or-so articles from 40-year-old
journals for a local historical/archaeological society.

The first thing that I took into account is that not everyone is going
to be able to 'see' the pages; some will 'hear' them, some will 'feel'
them.

The concept of using a superscript number, therefore, wasn't going to be
sufficient (you're going to need good ears to hear a numeral suddenly
appearing out of a maze of words).

So, let's take a (fictitious) example.

"...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested1. (The '1' being
superscript in the printed version.)

I tended to code this as:

"........ and was consistent as the elevation suggested. <a
href="#Referenc es"><span class="hideit>S ee reference</span> [1].</a>

The sighted user would see:
"...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested.[1].

(With [1] coloured and underlined as a link, as per convention.)

The non-sighted user would hear:
"...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested. See reference 1.

'See reference 1' would be spoken in a 'links' voice, and would also
appear in that form if the user asked for a 'list of links'.

The footnotes were grouped at the end of the page under a suitable
heading.
E.g. <h2>REFRERENCES .</h2> which could be accessed easily if a user
switches to 'headings navigation' mode.

I experimented with putting hidden 'return' links at the end of each
individual reference in the list, but found the amount of work didn't
(at the time) justify it.

I'm not sure I have the best solution -- but it seems to work.

Regards.



--
Jake (jake@gododdin. demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[James A. Donald]

Re: Footnote style

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 04:59:48 GMT, mbstevens[color=blue]
> Besides, the web itself is largely interlinked notes that
> reference each other. What's important over here is just a
> footnote to someone over there. Relativity of relevance rules.
> You're denying visitors the ability to easily bookmark just the
> footnote. You can use real footnotes, but it seems quaint and
> outdated.[/color]

So you are arguing that when a book is adapted to this medium,
footnotes should become links. And if the user wants to see a link in
context, he (not I) should pop it up.


--

http://www.jim.com

[James A. Donald]

Re: Footnote style

James A. Donald[color=blue][color=green]
> > How have other people solved this problem?[/color][/color]

Jake[color=blue]
> I've recently been converting a hundred-or-so articles from 40-year-old
> journals for a local historical/archaeological society.
>
> The first thing that I took into account is that not everyone is going
> to be able to 'see' the pages; some will 'hear' them, some will 'feel'
> them.
>
> The concept of using a superscript number, therefore, wasn't going to be
> sufficient (you're going to need good ears to hear a numeral suddenly
> appearing out of a maze of words).
>
> So, let's take a (fictitious) example.
>
> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested1. (The '1' being
> superscript in the printed version.)
>
> I tended to code this as:
>
> "........ and was consistent as the elevation suggested. <a
> href="#Referenc es"><span class="hideit>S ee reference</span> [1].</a>[/color]

I assume the css code for your span class "hideit" is
span.hideit {
height : 0;
width : 0;
overflow : hidden;
position : absolute;
}

But there is a risk some browsers will display the "See reference"
[color=blue]
>
> The sighted user would see:
> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested.[1].
>
> (With [1] coloured and underlined as a link, as per convention.)
>
> The non-sighted user would hear:
> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested. See reference 1.
>
> 'See reference 1' would be spoken in a 'links' voice, and would also
> appear in that form if the user asked for a 'list of links'.
>
> The footnotes were grouped at the end of the page under a suitable
> heading.
> E.g. <h2>REFRERENCES .</h2> which could be accessed easily if a user
> switches to 'headings navigation' mode.
>
> I experimented with putting hidden 'return' links at the end of each
> individual reference in the list, but found the amount of work didn't
> (at the time) justify it.[/color]

In my case the footnotes are obviously intended to be read in context,
so I suppose I should put in a back reference, but indeed it seems too
much work - user can use the back arrow in his browser. We should not
unnecessarily duplicate the capabilities already built into the web.



--

http://www.jim.com

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Footnote style

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, James A. Donald wrote:
[color=blue]
> So you are arguing that when a book is adapted to this medium,
> footnotes should become links. And if the user wants to see a link
> in context, he (not I) should pop it up.[/color]

This may be a difference between marginal notes, and footnotes in the
strict sense of the term. Some books have both. Some books even have
three categories - marginal notes, notes at the foot of each page, and
supplementary notes at the back (not including the literature
references! Four?).

At least, with a decent web browser, the user has the option to open
additional resources in a separate window or tab, at their discretion
and convenience. I'm not keen on the author trying to second-guess
how I'd want to browse, although I'm well aware of the regular chorus
of "but, but, readers don't know how to use their browsers". Well, if
that's what the chorus think, why aren't they helping their readers to
learn?

all the best

[constantinopoli@gmail.com]

Re: Footnote style


James A. Donald wrote:[color=blue]
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 04:59:48 GMT, mbstevens[color=green]
> > Besides, the web itself is largely interlinked notes that
> > reference each other. What's important over here is just a
> > footnote to someone over there. Relativity of relevance rules.
> > You're denying visitors the ability to easily bookmark just the
> > footnote. You can use real footnotes, but it seems quaint and
> > outdated.[/color]
>
> So you are arguing that when a book is adapted to this medium,
> footnotes should become links. And if the user wants to see a link in
> context, he (not I) should pop it up.[/color]

You could combine two solutions (compare blogs, with recent articles on
the front page but also accessible by "permalink" ).

As far as one system goes, my favorite as a reader is to put everything
on one page, with links to anchors. This will not work if the document
is so long that just rendering it takes a long time. This makes the
document easily downloadable, easily printable.

Sometimes I will read a text, and then read through the footnotes once
I am done with the text. It would help me if the footnotes were
together in sequence and backlinked to the text. As before, this need
not be the unique system; it could be combined with popups,
one-footnote-per-page, or whatever.

[James Pickering]

Re: Footnote style

James A. Donald wrote:[color=blue]
> In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
> slightly smaller type.[/color]
[color=blue]
> Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
> a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.
>
> How have other people solved this problem?[/color]

This page illustrates the way I do it .....

http://jp29.org/adc1938.htm

...... I do not worry about footnote (or gloss) text size when I write
for the Web.

[Jake]

Re: Footnote style

In message <b43gj1tgc87799 d9v48vcb6g83jvr 44c9g@4ax.com>, James A. Donald
<jamesd@echeque .com> writes[color=blue]
>James A. Donald[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > How have other people solved this problem?[/color][/color]
>
>Jake[color=green]
>> I've recently been converting a hundred-or-so articles from 40-year-old
>> journals for a local historical/archaeological society.
>>
>> The first thing that I took into account is that not everyone is going
>> to be able to 'see' the pages; some will 'hear' them, some will 'feel'
>> them.
>>
>> The concept of using a superscript number, therefore, wasn't going to be
>> sufficient (you're going to need good ears to hear a numeral suddenly
>> appearing out of a maze of words).
>>
>> So, let's take a (fictitious) example.
>>
>> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested1. (The '1' being
>> superscript in the printed version.)
>>
>> I tended to code this as:
>>
>> "........ and was consistent as the elevation suggested. <a
>> href="#Referenc es"><span class="hideit>S ee reference</span> [1].</a>[/color]
>
>I assume the css code for your span class "hideit" is
>span.hideit {
>height : 0;
>width : 0;
>overflow : hidden;
>position : absolute;
>}[/color]

Something similar .... one of many methods of using CSS to hide text
from a CSS-enabled browser (or repositioning the text 1000 px away from
the viewport is another) while still allowing an Assistive Technology UA
to announce it.[color=blue]
>
>But there is a risk some browsers will display the "See reference"
>[/color]
Only in browsers without a CSS capability; and in those cases it really
doesn't matter much anyway IMO.[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> The sighted user would see:
>> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested.[1].
>>
>> (With [1] coloured and underlined as a link, as per convention.)
>>
>> The non-sighted user would hear:
>> "...... and was consistent as the elevation suggested. See reference 1.
>>
>> 'See reference 1' would be spoken in a 'links' voice, and would also
>> appear in that form if the user asked for a 'list of links'.
>>
>> The footnotes were grouped at the end of the page under a suitable
>> heading.
>> E.g. <h2>REFRERENCES .</h2> which could be accessed easily if a user
>> switches to 'headings navigation' mode.
>>
>> I experimented with putting hidden 'return' links at the end of each
>> individual reference in the list, but found the amount of work didn't
>> (at the time) justify it.[/color]
>
>In my case the footnotes are obviously intended to be read in context,
>so I suppose I should put in a back reference, but indeed it seems too
>much work - user can use the back arrow in his browser. We should not
>unnecessaril y duplicate the capabilities already built into the web.
>
>[/color]
That's OK if the footnotes aren't grouped at the end of the page under a
general 'References' heading.

I guess that using a user-requested pop-up window is another way of
handling footnotes?

Regards.[color=blue]
>
>--
>http://www.jim.com[/color]

--
Jake (jake@gododdin. demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[James Pickering]

Re: Footnote style

James Pickering wrote:[color=blue]
> James A. Donald wrote:[color=green]
> > In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
> > slightly smaller type.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
> > a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> > document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.
> >
> > How have other people solved this problem?[/color]
>
> This page illustrates the way I do it .....
>
> http://jp29.org/adc1938.htm
>
> ..... I do not worry about footnote (or gloss) text size when I write
> for the Web.[/color]

Here is another example page:

http://jp29.org/blackhawk.htm

[Stan Brown]

Re: Footnote style

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 03:53:45 GMT in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Beauregard T. Shagnasty favored
us with...[color=blue]
> James A. Donald wrote:
>[color=green]
> > In a book, a footnote is presented at the bottom of the page, in a
> > slightly smaller type.[/color]
> <snip>[color=green]
> > Html does not have any equivalent of a slightly smaller font - to get
> > a slightly smaller font we would have to specify the fonts of the main
> > document and also the font of the footnote class, which is bad.[/color]
>
> Yes, that is bad. Use CSS.[/color]

Why is <small> not deprecated, I wonder?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

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validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:

http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you