Help with a table using Strict HTML

[Mark Parnell]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

Previously in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, "c.thornqui st"
<c.thornquist@i nsightbb.com> said:
[color=blue]
> I place a row above
> or below with transparent .gifs 1 pixel high in the cells.[/color]

Whoah! Flashback!

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Zifud]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

Leif K-Brooks wrote:[color=blue]
> c.thornquist wrote:
>[color=green]
>> What I should have said is "there is no rule against using tables for
>> informational text and/or images, but the w3c frowns upon using them
>> in that manner."[/color]
>
>
> "There is no rule -- unless, of course, you count the rule that's in
> HTML's official standards." Right.[/color]

I suppose that's why the 'rule' on using tables for tabular data is
under 'Guideline 5'.



--
Zif

[Zifud]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

Harlan Messinger wrote:
[...][color=blue]
>
> The "rule" comes from an understanding of the intent behind the design
> of HTML. It's a markup language, a way of describing data.[/color]

I think you are confusing HTML with metadata. HTML is primarily a
means of making information accessible:

<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/intro.html#h-2.2>

HTML does not provide any 'description' of page content at all,
though content within a particular HTML element may provide a
description of the content of some other element or group of
elements.

HTML provides a consistent language that can be used by a browser
to present information, as well as how to retrieve and send it.
[color=blue]
> The data
> consists of the parts of a document. In HTML, documents are defined to
> consist of a head and a body, and the body is defined to include such
> elements as paragraphs, divisions, headings, lists, tables, and forms.
> The markup is supposed to reflect this division of a document into these
> components.
>
> A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
> organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
> text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
> tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
> what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*. HTML[/color]

Such zealotry!! If using tables for non-tabular data is "lying",
please explain the following extract from the HTML 4 standard:

"The HTML table model allows authors to arrange data -- text,
preformatted text, images, links, forms, form fields, other
tables, etc. -- into rows and columns of cells."

<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.1>

Which not only infers that tables can be used to layout many types of
data, including tabular data, but even other nested tables.

Or are the authors of the HTML specification complicit in your
suggested deceit inherent in using tables for 'non-tabular' data?
[color=blue]
> markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.[/color]

HTML is intended to make information with a page accessible, it does
not 'describe content'. You may infer things about content based on
the surrounding markup, but that is not the intent of the
specification nor, probably, the author.



--
Zif

[Eric Bohlman]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote in
news:3b0hh2F6f1 o2bU1@individua l.net:
[color=blue]
> A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
> organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
> text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
> tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
> what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*.
> HTML markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.[/color]

I'd like to point out that *if* tables had always been used solely for
tabular data, there's a very good chance that today's modern browsers
would have the ability to display them in ways that would be very useful
for genuine tabular data, but would make no sense for layout tables and
would in fact break the layouts. At the very least, they might allow you
to lock headers in place as you scroll through a table. Some might offer
a spreadsheet-like navigable presentation of tables (in fact they might
even embed a mini-spreadsheet so that the person reading a table could
actually do simple calculations on the data). Others might offer
something similar to the "detail view" in MS-Windows controls: headers as
"buttons" that can be clicked to sort the table, dragged around to
rearrange the columns, and resized (that one would likely save a lot of
IT staff time for intranet sites producing management reports, since they
wouldn't have to write program code to produce different sort orders and
views).

All those features would greatly enhance the presentation and usability
of genuine tabular data. But there's no way for a browser to tell
whether a <table> is truly tabular or a layout hack. As things now
stand, a browser that tried to use any of those methods would simply
break a whole lot of pages. Maybe the next version of HTML should add
some attribute to <table> to let the author declare that the table is, in
fact, a table.

[c.thornquist]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML


"Mark Parnell" <webmaster@clar kecomputers.com .au> wrote in message
news:1tjlwq4qhw 4jn$.gk6dutgenr fp$.mark@markpa rnell.com.au...

<snip>
[color=blue]
> Whoah! Flashback!
>
> --
> Mark Parnell
> http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au[/color]

I know. It's kind of embarrassing to admit that you use transparent .gifs
and tables. Worse, that you like building with tables. Here's another
flashback: be sure to set your borders to "2" when building, then back to
"0" when done:)

Carla

[johnSteve]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:46:25 -0500, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>c.thornquist wrote:
>
> what is the rule and why was it established?
>
>The "rule" comes from an understanding of the intent behind the design
>of HTML.[/color]
snipped[color=blue]
>A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
>organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
>text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
>tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
>what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*. HTML
>markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.[/color]

not real convincing - that rule.

Pixel Perfect People need tables.
If they hadn't already had tables, they would of had to invent one.

But I dont have any rule against tables for layout. My problem with
tables is they seldom contain accessible and relevant information
unless they do contain tabular data. And even then, often the data is
not styled to emphasize whatever point is being made.

Pictures may be worth a thousand words, but there is nothing like a
well written paragraph with a proper heading and a touch of style for
positioning and emphasis to convey accessible and relevant
information. There needs to be a flow to information, if it is to lead
to a conclusion(agre e) and/or an action(buy,comm it).

hard to flow in a table, starts, stops, change of directions,
surrounded by many walls..

below is my example of an html strict table done with style that
manages to convey information. Yes, I used a table for layout.

(path of the y-chromosome and mtDNA through a family line)

http://www.sturgood.com/dna/trace_demo.html

valid html, css, all text, and flexible. As Barbara said in above
thread, let the cells expand with content. This is a great example of
that, no table width, no cell width..

incredibly simple structure.

I assumed this could be done without a table. Perhaps by stacking divs
like cells. Float for cells, relative for rows? But why, if the table
structure exists and works?

Is this tabular data?
Sort of...
It is a meaningful organization,
But its value is in the layout.

cheers
johnSteve

[Andy Dingley]

Re: Help with a table using Strict HTML

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:13:42 GMT, "BT" <no@xnono.com > wrote:
[color=blue]
>I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML[/color]

No it doesn't.