No future for DB2

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  • Art S. Kagel

    #76
    Re: No future for DB2

    Noons wrote:[color=blue]
    > Data Goob wrote:
    >[color=green]
    >>flames. They opted to buy the racing team with their marketing budget, instead
    >>of promoting any of their products. The racing team really helped get the[/color]
    >
    >
    > Oh puh-leaze: the ONLY reason IBM bought Informix
    > was that it was a cheap way of buying another 5 or so %
    > points in the db size of user base race so they could
    > claim to be ahead of Oracle!
    >
    > They NEVER had any plan to do anything else with Informix
    > other than improperly claiming their share of the market
    > as DB2's or IBm's.
    >
    > And that's a fact.
    >[/color]

    Actually there were two main reasons for IBM purchasing Informix's database
    assets:
    1- Increased RDBMS market share numbers to snub Oracle was certainly a motive.
    2- Informix's clustered server version, IDS 8.x, uses a similar architecture
    to DB2 but is more parallel and is multithreaded. IBM wanted to see if a
    merger of technologies could create a better DB2.

    And, yes, they originally hoped to entice all of Informixdom to switch to
    DB2 from IDS. However, several things have happened in the intervening four
    years:
    1- IBM has come to realize that the technology differences internally
    between IDS 8 and DB2 were too great for such a product merger and since DB2
    does the cluster thing very well already, IBM decided to just orphan IDS
    8.xx and drop the idea of a tech merged product.

    2- Informix users refused for the most part to switch to DB2.

    3- Rumors I have reason to believe indicate that Informix IDS 9.xx has been
    selling at least as many new licenses as DB2 on LUW despite sales people who
    knew nothing about the product until recently, implicit orders to switch
    customers asking for IDS to DB2, and a continuation of Informix's
    advertising and marketing strategies for IDS (ie non-existent).

    4- Informix IDS 9.xx servers outperform DB2 anytime a customer or potential
    customer bothers to benchmark both together. (I'd be interested in hearing
    from people whose experience is different from those who have shared with me
    to date. So far I have no examples to contradict this contention.)

    The result of this:
    1- The IDS development budget is larger today than it was when Informix
    owned the product.

    2- I firmly believe that IBM will be posting IDS TPC-C and maybe TPC-H
    benchmarks before the end of the year.

    3- IBM has begun to mention IDS (yes and Cloudscape) in just about every
    advertisement about database systems right along side DB2.

    4- IBM sales people are getting the word that it's OK to sell IDS to new and
    existing customers and the pressure to switch is abating rapidly.

    5- Informix's ESQL/C in the latest release of Client SDK can compile
    applications that can communicate equally with DB2 or IDS.

    6- Rather than merge IDS and DB2 IBM is incorporating the best features of
    each in the other without compromising the technological strengths and
    product integrity of either. Examples are IDS style HDR and ER replication
    in DB2, and improved autonomic computing features in IDS.

    Where is all of this leading us? Where is it going? My predictions for the
    next five years:

    -- After an abortive attempt to pigeon hole IDS as an embedded server for
    3rd party application development only, IBM will begin selling DB2 and IDS
    each to its strengths. IDS for medium to huge SMP and NUMA architecture
    servers for OLTP and DSS systems, for distributed data applications, and yes
    as the premium engine for developing 3rd party applications with an embedded
    enterprise quality RDBMS. DB2 for massive servers on distributed clustered
    systems for DW and hybrid OLTP/DSS/DW systems. (Unlike my opinion of other
    RDBMSes out there, from the free to the most expensive, my opinion of DB2 is
    mostly positive, but I am a firm believer in using the right tool for the
    job at hand. I believe that IBM and the market will see this also.)

    -- IBM will continue to produce increased interoperabilit y features in both
    DB2 and IDS such that applications developed for either will run virtually
    unchanged connected to the other engine. Already all of IBM's development
    tools support IDS transparently.

    -- We will see the ability to replicate data between DB2 and IDS servers
    making it easier to use both together in the same shop for applications that
    they each serve best.

    -- IBM will finally take ownership of IDS renaming it DB2 Dynamic Server
    Architecture or something similar. Is this the death knell of Informix?
    No, only of the name and it's not the name that we Informix bigots love.

    Art S. Kagel, ultimate IDS bigot.

    Comment

    • bka

      #77
      Re: No future for DB2

      This is not crawling:

      The Transaction Processing Performance Council (TPC) defines Transaction Processing and Database Benchmarks and delivers trusted results to the industry.


      No crawling is done on the 4 DB2 Windows results here:

      The Transaction Processing Performance Council (TPC) defines Transaction Processing and Database Benchmarks and delivers trusted results to the industry.


      Comment

      • John Bailo

        #78
        Re: No future for DB2

        ibm_97@yahoo.co m wrote:
        [color=blue]
        > I completely agree. No future for DB2, at all.[/color]

        IBM created the World's Chess Champion.

        If they want to make DB2 the world's database champion, they will do
        so...with ease.

        --
        Texeme

        Comment

        • ibm_97@yahoo.com

          #79
          Re: No future for DB2

          All IBM documentation is available free on the web, indexed by major
          search
          engines, and thus the need for books written by third-parties is not
          really
          neccessary.

          Could you show me any IBM doc about how to set up update anywhere
          replication step by step?

          Oracle provides very good docs, no matter you wanna set up advanced
          replication, RAC, or data guard. It's just much better.

          On the product side, don't you feel IBM replication center is too buggy?

          Comment

          • DA Morgan

            #80
            Re: No future for DB2

            Anton Versteeg wrote:
            [color=blue][color=green]
            >> Face it: outside of the mainframe environment, DB2
            >> has got NO CHANCE of long term survival.
            >>[/color]
            > Wannna bet? Kind of stealing from a child :)[/color]

            Actually yes ... I do want to take that bet. I like low risk
            wagers. The operative phrase where is "long term" provided
            you agree that it means 20 years, or more. I am not so old that
            I won't be around to collect.
            --
            Daniel A. Morgan
            Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

            damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
            (replace x with u to respond)

            Comment

            • DA Morgan

              #81
              Re: No future for DB2

              Anton Versteeg wrote:[color=blue]
              > DA Morgan wrote:
              >
              >[color=green]
              >> Those working with DB2 should take a serious look at which is more
              >> important ... product loyalty or paying the mortgage.[/color]
              >
              >
              > You still have a mortgage?
              > Mine was paid off long time ago :)[/color]

              How about a charitable donation to put two lovely young
              ladies through graduate school so I can pay mine off too? ;-)
              --
              Daniel A. Morgan
              Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

              damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
              (replace x with u to respond)

              Comment

              • DA Morgan

                #82
                Re: No future for DB2

                Noons wrote:[color=blue]
                > Anton Versteeg wrote:
                >[color=green]
                >>No since Oracle has zip marketshare on the mainframe,
                >>my statement is true, but to please you I will rephrase it to:
                >>DB2 is the only product that has proven it runs on the mainframe,
                >>midrange and PC and also sunstantial market share.[/color]
                >
                >
                > Using EXACTLY the same argument as you then:
                > I have NEVER come across DB2 on the PC. So,
                > it doesn't run on the PC, period.
                > Howzzat-den for argument?[/color]

                In 10 years there will be far fewer mainframes.
                In 10 years there will be far more PCs
                I think your argument carries more weight.

                And, BTW, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group runs Oracle
                on mainframes.
                --
                Daniel A. Morgan
                Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

                damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
                (replace x with u to respond)

                Comment

                • DA Morgan

                  #83
                  Re: No future for DB2

                  Knut Stolze wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > That's a nice flamewar here. Let's fan it some more... ;-)
                  >
                  > Your metric doesn't mean anything useful. As you are surely aware, the
                  > number of books probably only says samething about the number of *bad* book
                  > being available - not about the number of good and useful books, which is
                  > undoubtedly rather small for Oracle too. (I'm inclined to agree that there
                  > might be more useful Oracle books out there than for DB2.)
                  >
                  > Another idea is: why are so many books needed for Oracle in the first place?
                  > Makes me wonder. ;-)[/color]

                  By all means ... why not. But not a bit of this is flames. No one is
                  saying your product is garbage and ours is gooder. This is simple
                  statements of fact you can verify with any web browser.

                  Books (bookstores and amazon.com) and employment opportunities
                  (dice.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com) are a direct measure of
                  the vibrancy of the user community.

                  There are few DB2 books because the user community is aging baby-boomers
                  such as myself who know enough to get by until retirement. There are few
                  newbies coming into the marketplace.

                  Look at my reference to training classes at colleges and universities.
                  We don't teach DB2 for a reason: No one cares. Students don't care and
                  employers don't care. And yes we have surveyed employers from the San
                  Francisco Bay area up to Seattle and while there are some big shops with
                  DB2 and mainframes ... they don't produce 1% of the demand created by
                  those hiring SQL Server and Oracle.

                  The reason there are so many books on Oracle is not what you assume
                  though I suspect your statement disingenuous but rather that the product
                  line is so broad.

                  There are books on SQL and PL/SQL. There are books on high availability
                  options such as RAC, DataGuard and RMAN, there are books on App Server,
                  books on Java and JDeveloper, books on Performance Tuning, books on
                  efficient design.

                  So, for a single example, why are there no books on efficient design
                  with DB2? No one is designing new apps? No one cares about efficiency?
                  Or perhaps those my age that have 10+ years under their belt are just
                  marking time until they can go fishing.
                  --
                  Daniel A. Morgan
                  Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

                  damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
                  (replace x with u to respond)

                  Comment

                  • DA Morgan

                    #84
                    Re: No future for DB2

                    Data Goob wrote:
                    [color=blue]
                    > Even if your statements are correct ( following the trend here :-) DB2
                    > scales better than Oracle, or SQL-Server.[/color]

                    And looking at Microsoft as the poster-child for this discussion lets
                    agree that superior technology has never one the day over superior
                    marketing. Ask the fine people who developed Fox how they feel about
                    MS Access. Or the fine people who developed OS/2 about Windows. Or
                    even your new friends at Informix how they feel about DB2. ;-)
                    [color=blue]
                    > The big question is why IBM
                    > hasn't really done the marketing. The answer is Java. They have put
                    > a lot of eggs in the Java basket, but have hardly spoken about DB2 as
                    > "da bomb", or the hottest thing. It's not their style to do so, but
                    > you do get the impression that IBM will stay the course with its
                    > quirky, goofy, self-deprecating commercial ad campaigns. There does
                    > appear to be a move to make DB2 ubiquitous in the market silently, as
                    > a utilitarian tool, as well as a mainstream database. But marketing
                    > is where the action is, and any product, no matter where it comes
                    > from won't survive without great marketing. SQL-Server is about to
                    > have its big day Q4 2005, but doubtful we'll see any noise from IBM.[/color]

                    SQL Server will be lucky if its next version is released during the
                    current decade. At least without deprecating much of the "new"
                    functionality. They are what ... 3.5 years behind schedule?
                    [color=blue]
                    > Oracle will probably have its usual suspects show up in the trades
                    > with compelling acrimony why SQL-Server is a bad choice--again--and
                    > the cycle will repeat... What is really interesting is the SQL-Server
                    > market, and where everyone will be focused for the near term.[/color]

                    Microsoft has been and is primarily a marketing jugernaut. The are no
                    match technologically speaking to either DB2, Informix, or Oracle. To
                    do so would cost them money and then Bill might not be able to afford
                    the Caesar salad.
                    --
                    Daniel A. Morgan
                    Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

                    damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
                    (replace x with u to respond)

                    Comment

                    • DA Morgan

                      #85
                      Re: No future for DB2

                      John Bailo wrote:[color=blue]
                      > ibm_97@yahoo.co m wrote:
                      >
                      >[color=green]
                      >>I completely agree. No future for DB2, at all.[/color]
                      >
                      >
                      > IBM created the World's Chess Champion.
                      >
                      > If they want to make DB2 the world's database champion, they will do
                      > so...with ease.[/color]

                      Just like they did with OS/2 eh.
                      --
                      Daniel A. Morgan
                      Oracle PL/SQL examples, syntax, DBMS packages, string, timestamp, substring, PHP code, and Javascript Code Reference Library (formerly known as Morgan's Library)

                      damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
                      (replace x with u to respond)

                      Comment

                      • bka

                        #86
                        Re: No future for DB2

                        Bobtdbb wrote:
                        [color=blue][color=green]
                        >> 2005 (Colleen Graham) -- "Much of IBM's growth was generated by its DB2
                        >> on the zSeries"[/color][/color]

                        You seem to be quoting selectively. Colleen also wrote: "IBM's DB2
                        sales on the UNIX platform performed well with nearly 9 percent
                        growth,"

                        Comment

                        • Knut Stolze

                          #87
                          Re: No future for DB2

                          Noons wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          > Knut Stolze apparently said,on my timestamp of 28/07/2005 9:41 PM:
                          >[color=green]
                          >> Your metric doesn't mean anything useful.[/color]
                          >
                          > No metric that doesn't include a "fanfare of the common blue"
                          > will ever mean anything useful to anyone at IBM.[/color]

                          Oh good that I'm only half IBM.

                          --
                          Knut Stolze
                          Information Integration Development
                          IBM Germany / University of Jena

                          Comment

                          • Serge Rielau

                            #88
                            Re: No future for DB2

                            Knut Stolze wrote:[color=blue]
                            > Oh good that I'm only half IBM.
                            >[/color]
                            Let's hope its the upper half. Especially since ibm_97 (he needs an
                            upgrade) took offence to IBM's active-active replication capabilities

                            Cheers
                            Serge
                            --
                            Serge Rielau
                            DB2 SQL Compiler Development
                            IBM Toronto Lab

                            Comment

                            • Serge Rielau

                              #89
                              Re: No future for DB2

                              DA Morgan wrote:[color=blue]
                              > Noons wrote:
                              >[color=green]
                              >> Anton Versteeg wrote:
                              >>[color=darkred]
                              >>> No since Oracle has zip marketshare on the mainframe,
                              >>> my statement is true, but to please you I will rephrase it to:
                              >>> DB2 is the only product that has proven it runs on the mainframe,
                              >>> midrange and PC and also sunstantial market share.[/color]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Using EXACTLY the same argument as you then:
                              >> I have NEVER come across DB2 on the PC. So,
                              >> it doesn't run on the PC, period.
                              >> Howzzat-den for argument?[/color]
                              >
                              >
                              > In 10 years there will be far fewer mainframes.
                              > In 10 years there will be far more PCs
                              > I think your argument carries more weight.
                              >
                              > And, BTW, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group runs Oracle
                              > on mainframes.[/color]
                              In 10 years there will be a lot more XQuery.
                              I fear who reigns RDBMS in 10-15 years is as interesting as IMS marketshare.

                              Cheers
                              Serge
                              --
                              Serge Rielau
                              DB2 SQL Compiler Development
                              IBM Toronto Lab

                              Comment

                              • Knut Stolze

                                #90
                                Re: No future for DB2

                                Serge Rielau wrote:
                                [color=blue]
                                > Knut Stolze wrote:[color=green]
                                >> Oh good that I'm only half IBM.
                                >>[/color]
                                > Let's hope its the upper half. Especially since ibm_97 (he needs an
                                > upgrade) took offence to IBM's active-active replication capabilities[/color]

                                Don't worry - the other 50% will be dealt with soon. ;-)

                                --
                                Knut Stolze
                                Information Integration Development
                                IBM Germany / University of Jena

                                Comment

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