initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

**Chris Dollin** · Oct 27 '08, 01:45 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

subramanian100i n@yahoo.com, India wrote:

The file stdio.h just contains
extern FILE *stdin;
extern FILE *stdout;
extern FILE *stderr;

There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
that the standard headers don't need to be files /at all/, each
implementation' s <stdio.hcan have different contents -- so long
as it provides what the standard requires and doesn't intrude into
the programmer's namespace.

Also, if your implementation' s <stdio.honly contains what you
mention above, it's not a conformant implementation, since it
doesn't declare `size_t`, `FILE`, `fpos_t`, `NULL`, `fopen`,
`fread`, `printf`, ... well, almost everything that's supposed
to be there.

What implementation is this?

When are the standard streams stdin, stdout, stderr initialiazed ?

Before `main` starts executing.

How are they initialiazed ?

However the implementation finds it convenient.

--
'Don't be afraid: /Electra City/
there will be minimal destruction.' - Panic Room

Hewlett-Packard Limited Cain Road, Bracknell, registered no:
registered office: Berks RG12 1HN 690597 England

**Kenny McCormack** · Oct 27 '08, 03:25 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

In article <ge4g57$9v3$1@n ews-pa1.hpl.hp.com> ,
Chris Dollin <chris.dollin@h p.comwrote:

>subramanian100 in@yahoo.com, India wrote:
>

>The file stdio.h just contains
>extern FILE *stdin;
>extern FILE *stdout;
>extern FILE *stderr;

>
>There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
>blah, blah, blah

Get real. You mean that if I refer to a particular piece of furniture
in my office as "the desk", that I'm wrong? That somebody is going to
come along and explain in excruciatingly patronizing terms that there is
no such thing as "the desk" - because there are other desks in the world (*)
and, in fact (I know we shouldn't even mention this, but what the heck!),
there are offices in the world that don't even have a desk!!!

(*) And, as amazing as I might find this, and as hard as it is to
believe, they don't all look the same as my desk!!! Oh the shock!
Oh the horror!!!

**Chris Dollin** · Oct 27 '08, 03:55 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

Kenny McCormack wrote:

In article <ge4g57$9v3$1@n ews-pa1.hpl.hp.com> ,
Chris Dollin <chris.dollin@h p.comwrote:

>>subramanian10 0in@yahoo.com, India wrote:
>>

>>The file stdio.h just contains
>>extern FILE *stdin;
>>extern FILE *stdout;
>>extern FILE *stderr;

>>
>>There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
>>blah, blah, blah

Yeah, sure, Kenny, twit the "regulars" for being unhelpful, but
given half -- no, one-googleth -- a chance, pick on the only thing
you can wilfully misunderstand in a posting and misunderstand it
to death.

Get real.

Complex fits better.

You mean that if I refer to a particular piece of furniture
in my office as "the desk", that I'm wrong?

Sure, if you're pointing to a chair or teapot, or if you're
expecting agreement that the desk you're pointing to is /the/,
that is the only or the definitive, desk. Is that what you're
doing? (fx:tap-tap) I'm not getting video on this connection.

Of course the OP might not have realised that was the implication
of what they'd said, perhaps because of dialectic differences,
of which I don't question the existence. Perhaps you, too, were
unaware of this usage. Consider this a learning opportunity.

there are offices in the world that don't even have a desk!!!

Are you claiming that those are /conformant/ offices?

(*) And, as amazing as I might find this, and as hard as it is to
believe, they don't all look the same as my desk!!! Oh the shock!
Oh the horror!!!

Multiple exclamation marks!

--
Chris "excruciati ngly patronizing" Dollin

'Don't be afraid: /Electra City/
there will be minimal destruction.' - Panic Room

Hewlett-Packard Limited registered no:
registered office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN 690597 England

**Keith Thompson** · Oct 27 '08, 05:55 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

Chris Dollin <chris.dollin@h p.comwrites:

Kenny McCormack wrote:

>In article <ge4g57$9v3$1@n ews-pa1.hpl.hp.com> ,
>Chris Dollin <chris.dollin@h p.comwrote:

>>>subramanian1 00in@yahoo.com, India wrote:
>>>
>>>The file stdio.h just contains
>>>extern FILE *stdin;
>>>extern FILE *stdout;
>>>extern FILE *stderr;
>>>
>>>There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
>>>blah, blah, blah

>
Yeah, sure, Kenny, twit the "regulars" for being unhelpful, but
given half -- no, one-googleth -- a chance, pick on the only thing
you can wilfully misunderstand in a posting and misunderstand it
to death.

[...]

Chris, please don't feed the troll. If you argue with Kenny, he wins;
don't play his game.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

**Phil Carmody** · Oct 28 '08, 12:25 AM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

gazelle@shell.x mission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:

In article <ge4g57$9v3$1@n ews-pa1.hpl.hp.com> ,
Chris Dollin <chris.dollin@h p.comwrote:

>>subramanian10 0in@yahoo.com, India wrote:
>>

>>The file stdio.h just contains
>>extern FILE *stdin;
>>extern FILE *stdout;
>>extern FILE *stderr;

>>
>>There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
>>blah, blah, blah

>
Get real. You mean that if I refer to a particular piece of furniture
in my office as "the desk", that I'm wrong? That somebody is going to
come along and explain in excruciatingly patronizing terms that there is
no such thing as "the desk" - because there are other desks in the world (*)
and, in fact (I know we shouldn't even mention this, but what the heck!),
there are offices in the world that don't even have a desk!!!

If your desk was in fact just a big cardboard box, would you still
call it a desk? Yes, it acts as a desk, but it's not really a desk.
So to the pedants, no, it's not a desk, but to the generalists,
it may as well be a desk, who cares what it really is.

(*) And, as amazing as I might find this, and as hard as it is to
believe, they don't all look the same as my desk!!! Oh the shock!
Oh the horror!!!

Pffft! I had cardboard boxes as desks when I first moved here!

Phil
--
Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that it does
not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God.
No lower opinion of the human race has ever been expressed.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899), American politician and scientist

**Malcolm McLean** · Oct 28 '08, 09:05 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

"Phil Carmody" <thefatphil_dem unged@yahoo.co. ukwrote in message

>
Pffft! I had cardboard boxes as desks when I first moved here!
>

Cardboard boxes? Paving stones, that's what we had. Eee, that's what it was
like, it was.

--
Free games and programming goodies.

http://www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~bgy1mm

**Mark McIntyre** · Oct 28 '08, 11:45 PM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

Malcolm McLean wrote:

>
"Phil Carmody" <thefatphil_dem unged@yahoo.co. ukwrote in message

>>
>Pffft! I had cardboard boxes as desks when I first moved here!
>>

Cardboard boxes? Paving stones, that's what we had. Eee, that's what it
was like, it was.

At least you didn't have to eat gravel. Or live in t'middle o't'm62.

**William Pursell** · Oct 29 '08, 04:25 AM

Re: initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

On 28 Oct, 00:23, Phil Carmody <thefatphil_dem un...@yahoo.co. uk>
wrote:

gaze...@shell.x mission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:

In article <ge4g57$9v...@n ews-pa1.hpl.hp.com> ,
Chris Dollin <chris.dol...@h p.comwrote:

>There isn't such a thing as "the" file `stdio.h`. Even if we ignore
>blah, blah, blah

Some of this attribution is incorrect. It was Kenny McCormack who
snipped Chris Dollin's statement and wrote "blah, blah, blah"
(and incorrectly attributed that to Chris).

Get real. You mean that if I refer to a particular piece of furniture
in my office as "the desk", that I'm wrong? That somebody is going to
come along and explain in excruciatingly patronizing terms that there is
no such thing as "the desk" - because there are other desks in the world (*)
and, in fact (I know we shouldn't even mention this, but what the heck!),
there are offices in the world that don't even have a desk!!!

>
If your desk was in fact just a big cardboard box, would you still
call it a desk? Yes, it acts as a desk, but it's not really a desk.
So to the pedants, no, it's not a desk, but to the generalists,
it may as well be a desk, who cares what it really is.
>

I think you have the metaphor reversed. Those who claim that
stdio.h must be a file are the one's who would insist that
a cardboard box cannot be a desk. To say that stdio.h is
a file is like saying that a desk is a piece of mahogany
furniture with 3 drawers on each side, one in the middle,
and an ink well on the top. Anyone familiar with the
general notion of a desk will take exception to such
a claim. Similarly, the claim "stdio.h is a file"
in invalid.

initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

initialization of stdin, stdout, stderr

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