query about printf

[Rahul]

Hi Everyone,

I had a query reg printf(). I heard that it can't be used in ISR's
as it is non-re-enterant. I didn't get as to why
printf is non-re-enterant and why non-re-enterant library can't be
used in an ISR?

Thanks in advance ! ! !

[Antoninus Twink]

Re: query about printf

On 28 May 2008 at 12:27, Rahul wrote:

I had a query reg printf(). I heard that it can't be used in ISR's as
it is non-re-enterant. I didn't get as to why printf is
non-re-enterant and why non-re-enterant library can't be used in an
ISR?

I believe POSIX requires the functions that write to streams to be
implemented in a re-entrant way (certainly this will be true if you're
using threads)... In general I don't think the famous ANSI C Standard
(praise be upon it!) insists on it. It's easy to imagine an
implementation of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.

If you call a non-reentrant function from an ISR, what if the code you
interrupted was another call to the same function? You'd likely corrupt
both the interrupted function's data and the data in the function called
by your ISR.

In any case, calling printf() in an ISR is almost certainly a mistake,
reentrant or not. Latency considerations mean that you really don't want
to be calling big bloated functions like printf() inside an ISR - you
would be blocking further interrupts for far too long.

[Eric Sosman]

Re: query about printf

Antoninus Twink wrote:

On 28 May 2008 at 12:27, Rahul wrote:

>I had a query reg printf(). I heard that it can't be used in ISR's as
>it is non-re-enterant. I didn't get as to why printf is
>non-re-enterant and why non-re-enterant library can't be used in an
>ISR?

>
I believe POSIX requires the functions that write to streams to be
implemented in a re-entrant way

<off-topicYou believe incorrectly. </off-topic>

(certainly this will be true if you're
using threads)...

<off-topicWrong again. </off-topic>

In general I don't think the famous ANSI C Standard
(praise be upon it!) insists on it.

In fact, there's an explicit warning to the contrary.

It's easy to imagine an
implementation of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.

The buffer needn't be static; its mere existence is
enough to doom re-entrancy.

--
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

[Rahul]

Re: query about printf

>

It's easy to imagine an
implementation of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.

>
The buffer needn't be static; its mere existence is
enough to doom re-entrancy.
>

What is the buffer is allocated on heap or declared as a local
varaible?

[Eric Sosman]

Re: query about printf

Rahul wrote:

>>It's easy to imagine an
>>implementatio n of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
>>up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.

>The buffer needn't be static; its mere existence is
>enough to doom re-entrancy.
>>

>
What is the buffer is allocated on heap or declared as a local
varaible?

(I guess you mean "what if.")

Wherever the buffer resides, characters destined for
output must pass through it. If it's statically allocated
or dynamically allocated, both the interrupted and the
interrupting activity need to deposit characters in it,
update a where-does-the-next-character-go indicator, and
decide whether to flush the contents. Unless all that can
be done uninterruptably , printf() is non-reentrant.

I hadn't considered an `auto' buffer, because it would
go out of existence when printf() returned to its caller.
It's possible that a printf() implementation could use such
a buffer, filling it during the call and draining it just
before the return. If it did so -- and if all the machinery
of draining the buffer to stdout was also re-entrant -- then
the worst that would happen would be that the output from
the interrupting printf() could appear in the middle of a
bunch of output from the interrupted printf():

Helloinvalid sense word 0xbadd
, world!

But that's an uncomfortably long chain of "ifs" to rely on,
especially since such a buffer is not the kind whose use is
suggested by the setbuf() and setvbuf() functions. (The
implementation need not "do anything" in response to those
calls, but their existence hints at a buffering regime that
uses longer-lived buffers.)

--
Eric Sosman
esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid

[Jens Thoms Toerring]

Re: query about printf

Rahul <sam_cit@yahoo. co.inwrote:

It's easy to imagine an
implementation of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.

The buffer needn't be static; its mere existence is
enough to doom re-entrancy.

>
What is the buffer is allocated on heap or declared as a local
varaible?

A non-static local variable shouldn't pose a problem. But
static (even local) variables aren't safe. If a call of
printf() gets interrupted by an ISR (or a signal or what-
ever asynchronous events there could be) and the handler
function itself uses printf() then a static buffer may
get overwritten by this new call and left in a state so
that it can't be used safely anymore by the original call
of printf() to which the program finally will get back.

But it's not only a problem with a static buffers.
printf() also could call malloc() and when, during the
execution of malloc() an asynchronous handler gets in-
voked that also calls malloc() or some related function
directly or indirectly, the whole memory allocation sys-
tem can get into a random state. Strange and nearly im-
possible to reproduce bugs would rather likely be the
result. So better check each and every function you use
in a handler for an asynchronous event that it is expli-
citely documented to be safe to use under such circum-
stances. That not means just thread-safety since in
threads the implementors can employ locking schemes etc.,
you need functions that are safe for use in signal hand-
lers. If a function isn't assume that it can't be used.

Regards, Jens
--
\ Jens Thoms Toerring ___ jt@toerring.de
\______________ ____________ http://toerring.de

[Rahul]

Re: query about printf

On May 28, 6:52 pm, Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalidwrot e:

Rahul wrote:

>It's easy to imagine an
>implementati on of printf() that used a static internal buffer to build
>up the string before sending it to stdout, for example.
The buffer needn't be static; its mere existence is
enough to doom re-entrancy.

>

What is the buffer is allocated on heap or declared as a local
varaible?

>
(I guess you mean "what if.")
>
Wherever the buffer resides, characters destined for
output must pass through it. If it's statically allocated
or dynamically allocated, both the interrupted and the
interrupting activity need to deposit characters in it,
update a where-does-the-next-character-go indicator, and
decide whether to flush the contents. Unless all that can
be done uninterruptably , printf() is non-reentrant.
>
I hadn't considered an `auto' buffer, because it would
go out of existence when printf() returned to its caller.
It's possible that a printf() implementation could use such
a buffer, filling it during the call and draining it just
before the return. If it did so -- and if all the machinery
of draining the buffer to stdout was also re-entrant -- then
the worst that would happen would be that the output from
the interrupting printf() could appear in the middle of a
bunch of output from the interrupted printf():
>
Helloinvalid sense word 0xbadd
, world!
>
But that's an uncomfortably long chain of "ifs" to rely on,
especially since such a buffer is not the kind whose use is
suggested by the setbuf() and setvbuf() functions. (The
implementation need not "do anything" in response to those
calls, but their existence hints at a buffering regime that
uses longer-lived buffers.)
>
--
Eric Sosman
esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid

If i'm correct, the ISR runs as a part of the operating system (kernel
task) and other tasks might call printf function. Lets assume this
version of printf uses a static buffer or a global buffer. In any
case, wouldn't the printf get linked into both these tasks?
Wouldn't both these tasks have their own version of the static or
global variable?

If so, then i don't see any reason for conflict, (yes, it might be
a problem in multi-threaded task). Also that it wouldn't matter if
printf is implemented as a static or dynamic library?

Thanks in advance ! ! !

[Eric Sosman]

Re: query about printf

Rahul wrote:

>
If i'm correct, the ISR runs as a part of the operating system (kernel
task) and other tasks might call printf function. Lets assume this
version of printf uses a static buffer or a global buffer. In any
case, wouldn't the printf get linked into both these tasks?
Wouldn't both these tasks have their own version of the static or
global variable?

The situation is far outside the scope of the C language.
In C there is no such thing as an "ISR" and there is only one
"task." Your questions aren't about C, but about specific
environments in which C can be used. And the answers will
be different[*] in different environments: An ISR in a Linux
system will have different conventions and constraints than
an ISR in Windows or in OS/390 or in your cell phone, even
if all these ISRs are written in C.
[*] Well, maybe not. I predict, with a confidence level
exceeding ninety percent, that the answer to "Is it safe to
call printf() in an ISR" will be "No," even though the reasons
behind the "No" will differ.

If so, then i don't see any reason for conflict, (yes, it might be
a problem in multi-threaded task). Also that it wouldn't matter if
printf is implemented as a static or dynamic library?

C has no notion of a static library or a dynamic library.
All it knows about are functions and data, and about some kind
of "linkage" that pulls a bunch of them together into a running
program. If you need information about the details of how
different systems accomplish this, you are asking not about C
but about those systems.

--
Eric.Sosman@sun .com

[Chris Torek]

Re: query about printf

[regarding reentrancy, or lack thereof, in printf implementations]

In article <MM2dnSl-HaUC_qDVnZ2dnUV Z_sudnZ2d@comca st.com>,
Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalidwrot e:

Wherever the buffer resides, characters destined for
>output must pass through it. If it's statically allocated
>or dynamically allocated, both the interrupted and the
>interrupting activity need to deposit characters in it,
>update a where-does-the-next-character-go indicator, and
>decide whether to flush the contents. Unless all that can
>be done uninterruptably , printf() is non-reentrant.

In my stdio, fprintf() (and hence printf()) is indeed non-reentrant,
in general.

I hadn't considered an `auto' buffer, because it would
>go out of existence when printf() returned to its caller.
>It's possible that a printf() implementation could use such
>a buffer, filling it during the call and draining it just
>before the return.

In my stdio, fprintf() does exactly this under some circumstances,
as an efficiency hack. However, it remains non-reentrant. In
particular, calling (f)printf from a signal handler can result in
slightly odd behavior (exactly "how odd" depends on how much the
compiler rearranges the adjustment of various "FILE" elements,
which in turn depends on machine architecture -- normally the bad
cases occur when "fp->_w--" or "*fp->_p++" gets interrupted in the
middle of a load/adjust/store sequence, so the "nested" printf sees
an unadjusted value and winds up using the same position in the
buffer, so that you "lose" one character).
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W) +1 801 277 2603
email: gmail (figure it out) http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html

[Antoninus Twink]

Re: query about printf

On 28 May 2008 at 13:21, Eric Sosman wrote:

Antoninus Twink wrote:

>I believe POSIX requires the functions that write to streams to be
>implemented in a re-entrant way

>
You believe incorrectly.
>

>(certainly this will be true if you're using threads)...

>
Wrong again.

Yeah, OK, s/reentrant/threadsafe/ I guess... And since this is such a
haunt of language lawyers, let's make clear that we're ignoring
functions that write to streams that are deliberately not threadsafe,
e.g. putc_unlocked() .

[Flash Gordon]

Re: query about printf

Antoninus Twink wrote, On 29/05/08 16:20:

<snip>

Yeah, OK, s/reentrant/threadsafe/ I guess... And since this is such a
haunt of language lawyers, let's make clear that we're ignoring
functions that write to streams that are deliberately not threadsafe,
e.g. putc_unlocked() .

Well, the OP was not talking about threads, so talking about what is
acceptable in a threaded environment rather than in the situation the OP
*was* talking about is just plain unhelpful. So you were wrong and if
you had said something correct it would have still been of no use to the OP.
--
Flash Gordon