Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

**Ian Collins** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Raz wrote:

Please confine your trolling to where it belongs.

--
Ian Collins.

**Chris Thomasson** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

"Raz" <osjdf@gmail.co mwrote in message
news:715v141f46 a5eg638h45f6tu2 pem1hohh1@4ax.c om...

>
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:54:37 GMT, Erik Wikströ
>

>>Obviously his knowledge of C++ is not as good as it should be.

>
As I said, I will find the link again. His knowledge of C++ is just
fine.
>

http://www.builderau.com.au/video/soa/Rusty-s-message-to-C-programmers/0,2000064338,22432924p,00.htm

>

http://www.builderau.com.au/video/soa/Why-C-remains-relevant/0,2000064338,22432921p,00.htm

>
So here is an expert of who believes that you don't need C++ to
program low level. C++ brings extra complexity that is not needed.

[...]

You are not forced to use "all" the features of C++. One could most
certainly use C++ in a kernel. However, I personally would avoid exceptions
and global ctor/dtors like the plague. I also would not use the STL, oh
well...

**Razi** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

On Tue, 06 May 2008 10:27:14 +1200, Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.co m>
wrote:

>Please confine your trolling to where it belongs.

Earlier you claimed I didn't post the sources. Now proof has been
posted, and it's the opinion of experts that you don't need C++ to
program in lower level since C++ just brings extra complexity. C has
always been way ahead of C++ in popularity and usage anyway, all
throughout years. That itself is a solid proof. C++ never did replace
C.

In any case, what makes you guys respond to each of my posts with
one-liner "troll" and "plonk" when you think I am troll? I find it
hilarious, really. I never respond to a troll with a post "troll"
like a bot repeatedly. That's breaking #1 rule of how to deal with a
troll. Could it be that C++ has caused you guys to lose some brain
chips and behave in deranged ways? That's a possibility that can't be
discounted. Perhaps we should a new thread to discuss that topic?

**Peter Duniho** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

On Mon, 05 May 2008 16:52:48 -0700, <"Razi<lsdop"@g mail.com>wrote:

[...]
In any case, what makes you guys respond to each of my posts with
one-liner "troll" and "plonk" when you think I am troll?

To emphasize to others that you ARE a troll. The replies aren't for your
benefit. If anything, you make our lives easier when you "plonk" us,
because we can then post messages knowing that there's no chance you'll
actually reply to them.

I see that, having found the C++ and Java newsgroups more and more
resistant to your trolling, you've now started including the C newsgroup.
Fortunately, the more unrelated newsgroups you insist on including in your
posts, the more obvious it is that you're trolling. I'm hopeful that
those in the C newsgroup will more readily realize that you're trolling
and skip the annoying phase of trying to reply seriously only to find out
that serious replies don't have any effect on you.

Of course, the fact that this latest thread has zero to do with Java
programming also helps make it more obvious that you're just trolling.
Again, your greed will eventually be your own undoing. Then you'll be
free of your trolling obligations and will be able to go get a life. When
that finally happens, everyone will live happily ever after, yourself
included. Who could ask for a better fairy tale ending? :)

Pete

**CBFalconer** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Razi wrote:

Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.co mwrote:
>

>Please confine your trolling to where it belongs.

>
Earlier you claimed I didn't post the sources. Now proof has been
posted, and it's the opinion of experts that you don't need C++
to program in lower level since C++ just brings extra complexity.
C has always been way ahead of C++ in popularity and usage anyway,
all throughout years. That itself is a solid proof. C++ never did
replace C.
>
In any case, what makes you guys respond to each of my posts with
one-liner "troll" and "plonk" when you think I am troll? I find it
hilarious, really. I never respond to a troll with a post "troll"
like a bot repeatedly. That's breaking #1 rule of how to deal with
a troll. Could it be that C++ has caused you guys to lose some
brain chips and behave in deranged ways? That's a possibility that
can't be discounted. Perhaps we should a new thread to discuss
that topic?

Do you realize that you are posting to comp.lang.c, and that your
posts are off-topic there? Simply delete c.l.c from the
distribution.

And try not to change your name etc. between postings.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home .att.net>
Try the download section.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

**Razii** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

On Mon, 05 May 2008 20:19:18 -0400, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yah oo.com>
wrote:

>Do you realize that you are posting to comp.lang.c, and that your
>posts are off-topic there? Simply delete c.l.c from the
>distribution .

From now on, all my posts would bee cross posted to comp.lang.c. What
are you going to do about it? Whine a little more?

**Razii** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

On Mon, 05 May 2008 16:40:04 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
<NpOeStPeAdM@nn owslpianmk.comw rote:

>Fortunately, the more unrelated newsgroups you insist on including in your
>posts, the more obvious it is that you're trolling.

I really don't care if people respond to me. I am going to continue
with shootout game for MY OWN pleasure. You are free to ignore it,
whine, and post whatever flame. Of course posting it here makes it
more fun since for some reason, all my threads generate a lot of
responses :) even whining, like you do, is counted as a response.
Did you know that?

Since someone whined from C newsgroup, from now on I will add that
group to the list of my posts. That group is relevant to topic as far
as I am concerned. We are doing benchmark of different language
implementation, so all languages, including C, is relevant to the
discussion.

**CBFalconer** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Razii wrote:

CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yah oo.comwrote:
>

>Do you realize that you are posting to comp.lang.c, and that your
>posts are off-topic there? Simply delete c.l.c from the
>distribution .

>
From now on, all my posts would bee cross posted to comp.lang.c.
What are you going to do about it? Whine a little more?

PLONK. Bye now.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home .att.net>
Try the download section.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

**Mike Schilling** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Razii wrote:

On Mon, 05 May 2008 20:19:18 -0400, CBFalconer
<cbfalconer@yah oo.com>
wrote:
>

>Do you realize that you are posting to comp.lang.c, and that your
>posts are off-topic there? Simply delete c.l.c from the
>distribution .

>
From now on, all my posts would bee cross posted to comp.lang.c.
What
are you going to do about it?

As suggested in your post's headers, I'm going to forward this to
abuse@rr.com . I encourage the rest of you to join me.

**Razi** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

On Mon, 5 May 2008 20:51:12 -0700, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschillin g@hotmail.comwr ote:

>As suggested in your post's headers, I'm going to forward this to
>abuse@rr.com . I encourage the rest of you to join me.

And now I am using aioe.org .. their email is probably,
abuse@aioe.org , in case you need help.

I can continue with next server in the next post if you want me to,
for at least two dozen servers continuously. After that, there is all
too reliable google.

Good luck in your email adventure anyway. There is nothing abusive
about posting benchmarks related to Java, C and C++ on a USENET
newsgroup.

**Chris Thomasson** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

"Mike Schilling" <mscottschillin g@hotmail.comwr ote in message
news:RAQTj.8626 $iK6.2156@nlpi0 69.nbdc.sbc.com ...

Razii wrote:

>On Mon, 05 May 2008 20:19:18 -0400, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yah oo.com>
>wrote:
>>

>>Do you realize that you are posting to comp.lang.c, and that your
>>posts are off-topic there? Simply delete c.l.c from the
>>distributio n.

>>
>From now on, all my posts would bee cross posted to comp.lang.c. What
>are you going to do about it?

>
As suggested in your post's headers, I'm going to forward this to
abuse@rr.com . I encourage the rest of you to join me.

What I was trying to tell Razii all along is that one can spend about 10-15
minutes creating a _very_ crude general purpose memory allocator in C++ that
can at least "compete" with Java:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/browse_frm/thread/68bdc76f9792de1f

JET aside for a moment, one must remember that Java has advantage of using
many tricks in the initial byte-code compilation and/or subsequent JIT
process. Its nice to now that many popular JVM's are still written in C
and/or C++; I am not going to plonk him just yet...

:^/

**cr88192** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

"Chris Thomasson" <cristom@comcas t.netwrote in message
news:_eadnWL1xb c8EILVnZ2dnUVZ_ j2dnZ2d@comcast .com...

"Raz" <osjdf@gmail.co mwrote in message
news:715v141f46 a5eg638h45f6tu2 pem1hohh1@4ax.c om...

>>
>On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:54:37 GMT, Erik Wikströ
>>

>>>Obviously his knowledge of C++ is not as good as it should be.

>>
>As I said, I will find the link again. His knowledge of C++ is just
>fine.
>>
>http://www.builderau.com.au/video/so...432924p,00.htm
>>
>http://www.builderau.com.au/video/so...432921p,00.htm
>>
>So here is an expert of who believes that you don't need C++ to
>program low level. C++ brings extra complexity that is not needed.

>
[...]
>
You are not forced to use "all" the features of C++. One could most
certainly use C++ in a kernel. However, I personally would avoid
exceptions and global ctor/dtors like the plague. I also would not use the
STL, oh well...

one has to give up many of the features, and is still faced with many of the
other technical issues, that IMO one is better off just using C...

**Mike Schilling** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Razi wrote:

On Mon, 5 May 2008 20:51:12 -0700, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschillin g@hotmail.comwr ote:
>

>As suggested in your post's headers, I'm going to forward this to
>abuse@rr.com . I encourage the rest of you to join me.

>
And now I am using aioe.org .. their email is probably,
abuse@aioe.org , in case you need help.
>
I can continue with next server in the next post if you want me to,
for at least two dozen servers continuously. After that, there is
all
too reliable google.

Why do you need to switch servers so often, if you're not a spammer?

**Chris Thomasson** · Jun 27 '08, 07:35 PM

Re: Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

"cr88192" <cr88192@NOSPAM .hotmail.comwro te in message
news:51475$481f f7ff$ca83b482$3 400@saipan.com. ..

>
"Chris Thomasson" <cristom@comcas t.netwrote in message
news:_eadnWL1xb c8EILVnZ2dnUVZ_ j2dnZ2d@comcast .com...

>"Raz" <osjdf@gmail.co mwrote in message
>news:715v141f4 6a5eg638h45f6tu 2pem1hohh1@4ax. com...

>>>
>>On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:54:37 GMT, Erik Wikströ
>>>
>>>>Obviously his knowledge of C++ is not as good as it should be.
>>>
>>As I said, I will find the link again. His knowledge of C++ is just
>>fine.
>>>
>>http://www.builderau.com.au/video/so...432924p,00.htm
>>>
>>http://www.builderau.com.au/video/so...432921p,00.htm
>>>
>>So here is an expert of who believes that you don't need C++ to
>>program low level. C++ brings extra complexity that is not needed.

>>
>[...]
>>
>You are not forced to use "all" the features of C++. One could most
>certainly use C++ in a kernel. However, I personally would avoid
>exceptions and global ctor/dtors like the plague. I also would not use
>the STL, oh well...

>
one has to give up many of the features, and is still faced with many of
the other technical issues, that IMO one is better off just using C...

Use all POD's, no ctor/dtor/"AUTO-vtable":

struct [kobject_name_PO D] {
[state];

void ctor() {
}

void dtor() throw() {
}

[kobject_name_PO D_API];
};

Think in terms of:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_frm/thread/1b106926ba5db19f

convert that C code into simple C++ interface... POD and ASM can be used in
a Kernel.

Use only explicit C++ POD, __NO__ STL, exceptions, constructor, destructors,
virtual functions, inheritance, whatever... Every object is POD; ctor/dtor
is explicit. POD templates would be allowed. You can still benefit from the
syntax of the language - kernel unfriendly features.

Each POD can be initalized like:

struct Kernel_atomic_w ord {
atomic_word m_value;

#define KERNEL_ATOMIC_W ORD_STATICINIT( mp_value) { \
(mp_value) \
}

void ctor(atomic_wor d const value) {
m_value = value;
}

void dtor() throw() {}

// fetch-and-add
atomic_word faa_mbacq(atomi c_word const addend) throw() {
atomic_word const result = ATOMIC_FAA(&m_v alue, addend);
MEMBAR_ACQUIRE( );
return result;
}

atomic_word faa_mbrel(atomi c_word const addend) throw() {
MEMBAR_RELEASE( );
return ATOMIC_FAA(&m_v alue, addend);
}

// swap
atomic_word swp_mbacq(atomi c_word const value) throw() {
atomic_word const result = ATOMIC_SWP(&m_v alue, addend);
MEMBAR_ACQUIRE( );
return result;
}

atomic_word swp_mbrel(atomi c_word const value) throw() {
MEMBAR_RELEASE( );
return ATOMIC_SWP(&m_v alue, addend);
}
};

Of course, C is nice... See, you can do "crude" OOP in C:'

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_frm/thread/1b106926ba5db19f

;^)

Humm, well, it every abstract interface has a vtable, yet their all POD...
Humm... Could possibly useful in a Kernel environment.

Indeed...

One can use C/C++ syntax in
(POD+someASM+OO P)-(exceptions+cto r/dtor+virtual_fu nc) in a Kernel...

Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

Rusty's message to C++ programmers (C or C++)

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